Rune Spells

A place to post news and also give your ideas about the future of the Suikoden series.
Please justify all speculations with reasons why you think such an event could happen.
KFCrispy
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by KFCrispy »

i just find the Magic Sword system particularly interesting because it has the potential to combine/require various skills of the owner... you needed the actual magic skill in III to make it more effective (as well as V), elemental affinity helped tremendously in V, you have to use MP, and you have to attack to make it effective. the thing i like the most about it was your could speed up slow characters... but usually slow characters have few rune slots and few free skill slots :(

it was done pretty well in Rhapsodia, being able to get a free attack + cause a status effect + power up a character greatly since they would permanently be on their element (that is, if you used the correct elemental rune!). PLUS the extra damage was based on the MAG stat. maybe it was a little too strong, but most characters could only use it once (before they level up again and restore all MP O_o), even at max level.

Suikoden V let you setup characters to do high amounts of damage by combining the Sword of Magic skill with boosting elemental affinities, but since you can't attack the very round you cast it and the battles generally lasted 1, maybe 2 rounds, it wasn't worth the cast.
if battles were more difficult, not being able to attack that round as the trade-off would have been fine, considering you can usually make up the difference on the third or fourth round. however, there were alternate damage enhancers that gave up defense or accuracy but ridiculously increased attack power, making them far more worthwhile.

other games have sword enchanters or something (Secret of Mana series) where adding these magic effects to allies' attacks were pretty good as well.

but it's not just about Sword of Magic... Suikoden fights in general lack the need to support and enhance characters in-battle other than the rare group heal. "what magic do you use? fire, lightning, water"
you already had all these passive rune boosts like Fury Runes that were almost completely safe and took away the need for Shield Rune support.. and defense is usually not an issue, so Earth and Water protective magic is rarely touched... Suikoden II's Wind magic had the ability to reflect magic spells but the enemy's magic attack would be so weak it wasn't worth blocking, and the reflected attack didn't do much damage to the caster. Jongleur Rune in Suikoden III was a pretty good add and even overpowering at times, but you can beat most enemies so quickly it's not even worth using it because the casting time is relatively long...
McBones
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by McBones »

I dont really like the idea of switching spell slots and applying spells to weapons,. It would add some more depth, but I think it would make the game too easy at times (like you said, at any time you would be able to have either an amazing healing spell or an amazing attack spell, and you could just outfit everyone with a heavy attack and nuke every boss). Plus that woulkd work for water runes and wind runes, but what about Fire and Lightning, where all the spells are already attacks? It might work if each spell had some kind of special way of attacking (Soaring Bolt from S3 and Thunder Runner from S5), but I think we should go toward new runes instead of customizing them.

I like the idea of combining runes, but that would probably only work with the magic runes, which still leaves a lot of possibilities. What would Shield + Fire come out to? Sword of Fire?

Id definitely like to see an improvement in the Magic Sword runes. In S5 it wasnt really worth it since it only lasted for a short time and the damage increase wasnt that great, but in S3 since the character also attacked during that turn, I think it was a little more balanced. Maybe increase the damage a little bit.

As I said, Id really just like to see more runes (magic and passive). I liked the Jongleur from S3, Holy, Condemnation, and Beast from S5, and that rune combination idea makes quite a few possibilities.
KFCrispy
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by KFCrispy »

changing/selecting rune spells is really too much management. is it going to be permanent for the entire game, or are you going to select it each time it's equipped or make a universal change through the menu?

how about the higher-tier runes just offering a completely different selection of spells (or some different) so that we're not just looking at a rune that's "a step up"... although it's still good to see lvl 3 Earthquake spells from Mother Earth...

and weapon runes should definitely use spell points to be more like Rhapsodia's. that would create a HUGE improvement on diversifying weapons and determining who's good at what. weak weapon? maybe your weapon rune is awesome, completely changing how you can use the character. unique command attacks can be more than the boring "3x dmg to one target... 2x dmg to one target".
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Mystical
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by Mystical »

I second your opinion, KFCrispy. Rhapsodia had the best skill runes system.
Unlike the rest of the Suikodens where most skill runes had "2x to target. Lose balance.".
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Sonic
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by Sonic »

I agree that skill runes definitely need a face lift. Personally, I think status effects should play a bigger role in combat. Thinking of a game like Final Fantasy Tactics (I know, different combat altogether, but still), as the game progressed merely mashing opponents with the strongest weapons and spells wouldn't really cut it after a while, you had to get a bit more clever and use guys like Geomancers and Time Mages. It kept things interesting, and added loads of depth without being overwhelming.

In most Suikoden games the only status effects I've ever really seen are "poison" and "dead". I was glancing at the Suikoden II manual the other day and saw a list as long as my arm of adverse status effects that I had never once seen in all my years of playing that game. Rust? Disunite? I had never heard of half of them. Having Rune spells or Skill Runes that would make it possible to saddle your opponents with unfavourable conditions could make those long hard battles a little more complicated than just "start with your fourth level lightning spell and work your way backwards".
Yeah!
Raijin
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by Raijin »

KFCrispy wrote:changing/selecting rune spells is really too much management. is it going to be permanent for the entire game, or are you going to select it each time it's equipped or make a universal change through the menu?
You will be able to allocate rune spells during battle and putting spells on weapons, shields and armor during battle. It will be a breeze. From the battle menu Rune -> Allocate Spell. And just move around the spells as you see fit.

I'm thinking how far you can go with allocating rune spells will depend on your character's affinity towards that rune. For example, if Geddoe has an "A" grade in Lightning magic he'll be able to allocate his Lightning runes spells all the way to level 4. Same with attaching rune spell on weapons or armor. Though everybody will be able to attach a Lv. 1 rune spell to begin with.
McBones wrote:I dont really like the idea of switching spell slots and applying spells to weapons,. It would add some more depth, but I think it would make the game too easy at times (like you said, at any time you would be able to have either an amazing healing spell or an amazing attack spell, and you could just outfit everyone with a heavy attack and nuke every boss). Plus that woulkd work for water runes and wind runes, but what about Fire and Lightning, where all the spells are already attacks? It might work if each spell had some kind of special way of attacking (Soaring Bolt from S3 and Thunder Runner from S5), but I think we should go toward new runes instead of customizing them.
The game can be easy if you're doing it right and be tactical about it. Or it can be easy the Suikoden way, where you just equip silly cheap runes and just auto everything. Personally I'd like to think about what I'm doing and be strategic than just auto. Maybe you don't feel the same way.

But I will create a scenario for you and try to change your mind. :wink:

Geddoe and co are heading up Mnt Path, suddenly you run into a group of Tarantulas, now attacking them with normal physical attacks would take 3 turns and maybe some of your antidotes if you're poisoned. :lol: Aila can use that level 4 Earthquake spell and make thing real quick for ya but you don't want to waste it for those lame Tarantulas and save it in case of an upcoming Boss fight. What you can do now with the new allocate option is swap the Earthquake spell to level 1 or 2, where you will have more than enough of them to take care them. Once you run into that nasty Rock Golem you can swap it back to level 4 and own him. :o

And KFCrispy, attaching rune spells on weapons can also be interactive like Suikoden Tactics did with its Sword of Magic runes. As each monster will have to be either Fire, Wind, Earth, Water or Lightning elemental and if one of your characters just happens to have the opposite elemental rune on him/her you can go to Runes -> Attach Rune Spell -> Weapon, Shield or Armor. More powerful level spell will be stronger when added to weapons. Lv. 4 will add 1.4x to attack, Lv. 3 - 1.3x and so on...

As for shield and armor, if Geddoe adds a lightning spell on his armor or shield and he's hit with lightning magic it will absorb it or cuts it in half depending on which level spell you put on. Level 4 spell would absorb, level 3 would cut it in half and so on...

This will add a whole layer of depth to the gameplay of Suikoden. Will you risk a level 4 spell on your armor (remember! when you attach it, you won't be able to use it) to absorb the boss's attack or will you go ahead and use it.

Sorry for the long post. Feedback everyone, please tell me want you think?
KFCrispy
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by KFCrispy »

Raijin wrote:Geddoe and co are heading up Mnt Path, suddenly you run into a group of Tarantulas, now attacking them with normal physical attacks would take 3 turns and maybe some of your antidotes if you're poisoned. :lol: Aila can use that level 4 Earthquake spell and make thing real quick for ya but you don't want to waste it for those lame Tarantulas and save it in case of an upcoming Boss fight. What you can do now with the new allocate option is swap the Earthquake spell to level 1 or 2, where you will have more than enough of them to take care them. Once you run into that nasty Rock Golem you can swap it back to level 4 and own him. :o

And KFCrispy, attaching rune spells on weapons can also be interactive like Suikoden Tactics did with its Sword of Magic runes. As each monster will have to be either Fire, Wind, Earth, Water or Lightning elemental and if one of your characters just happens to have the opposite elemental rune on him/her you can go to Runes -> Attach Rune Spell -> Weapon, Shield or Armor. More powerful level spell will be stronger when added to weapons. Lv. 4 will add 1.4x to attack, Lv. 3 - 1.3x and so on...

i think it's too much work and REALLY takes away from rune uniqueness. The way you describe it, Earth Runes are now just as good as Fire Runes or BETTER since you can just change the spell level of Earthquake.... it's become just a Fire Rune (for land-only but whatever). Water can be just like Fire.. Wind can be just like Fire. You would need EACH SPELL FOR EACH RUNE to be COMPLETELY different so runes can't overlap in functionality..

in Rhapsodia it's good that you can't just switch your element of your Magic Sword - otherwise it becomes TOO powerful... you have the option of equipping other Magic Sword elements and if you dedicate yourself to just 1 Magic Sword, you can strengthen your character's other aspects with other runes... if you want more diversity for a character, you should have to give up something else.

equipment is already hot-swappable.. and in Suikoden V, the skills are hot-swappable. i think that's enough. with the right Support Characters {another good idea to keep/expand on), you can make Runes hot-swappable. we don't need the SPELLS of runes hot-swappable, or it becomes ridiculous and runes lose their uniqueness.

what's the point of having a good Water mage if you already have a good Wind mage that can move around spells to completely match the functions of water? What's the point of having Fire mages if Earth mages can do the same but more with their support spells?
Raijin
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by Raijin »

KFCrispy wrote:i think it's too much work and REALLY takes away from rune uniqueness. The way you describe it, Earth Runes are now just as good as Fire Runes or BETTER since you can just change the spell level of Earthquake.... it's become just a Fire Rune (for land-only but whatever). Water can be just like Fire.. Wind can be just like Fire. You would need EACH SPELL FOR EACH RUNE to be COMPLETELY different so runes can't overlap in functionality..
You're right Earth, Water and Wind will overpower the all-magical attack runes because of their alternate roles being able to heal, status effect, protect allies. Rendering Lightning and Fire useless. Hmm... Okay then, like Sonic said maybe status ailment should play a bigger role next time.

Maybe they could change Lightning and Fire to each have status ailment and not be all attack only spells.

Fire: Burn & Heat
Lightning: Paralyze & Confusion

That's all I can think think of to counter this. But I'm sure someone out there can come up with something better to balance those runes.

KFCrispy wrote:in Rhapsodia it's good that you can't just switch your element of your Magic Sword - otherwise it becomes TOO powerful... you have the option of equipping other Magic Sword elements and if you dedicate yourself to just 1 Magic Sword, you can strengthen your character's other aspects with other runes... if you want more diversity for a character, you should have to give up something else.
But with the affinity system it would also limit you from using different runes and constantly changing them as each character would have different affinity towards a particular elemental rune. It wouldn't make sense to give someone with an "F" affinity in Wind Magic, a Wind Rune. And thus he won't be able to make any use of allocation and not be able to use Sword of Wind.
KFCrispy
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by KFCrispy »

that depends on the mechanics of the Magic Sword. in Rhapsodia, if you use a sword element equal to the one you're affiliated with, you get the benefits of always being on your own terrain.. but the extra damage from being the in the Magic Sword state comes from your MAG (regardless of stat boosts). you also have chances of causing status effects, so you can try to silence, stun, or make the enemy fall asleep.. but you would usually choose the element you are associated with to get the terrain boost bonus, while picking the opposite element is suicide.
in Suikoden III, your elemental affinities do not matter so being able to choose any element would just be a bonus; no negative effects.
in V, your offensive affinity really makes a difference in your damage.

So yeah, a general Magic Sword that lets you choose your element can work based on how the system is setup..

other games allow you to enchant other characters' weapons.. i wonder if we can see this ability in the future so it doesn't waste the attacker's turn..

I'd like to see some support other spells come back. Protect Mist was pretty good, Revenge Earth was a little powerful but requires a lot of setup to actually abuse.. Suikoden II also had Storm Warning that reflects magic attacks (but the damage dealt to the enemy caster was crap.. it can use some work). by changing the "upper-tier" and "lower-tier" runes to have different spell sets, they can include a lot more.
McBones
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by McBones »

Raijin wrote:The game can be easy if you're doing it right and be tactical about it. Or it can be easy the Suikoden way, where you just equip silly cheap runes and just auto everything. Personally I'd like to think about what I'm doing and be strategic than just auto. Maybe you don't feel the same way.

But I will create a scenario for you and try to change your mind. :wink:

Geddoe and co are heading up Mnt Path, suddenly you run into a group of Tarantulas, now attacking them with normal physical attacks would take 3 turns and maybe some of your antidotes if you're poisoned. :lol: Aila can use that level 4 Earthquake spell and make thing real quick for ya but you don't want to waste it for those lame Tarantulas and save it in case of an upcoming Boss fight. What you can do now with the new allocate option is swap the Earthquake spell to level 1 or 2, where you will have more than enough of them to take care them. Once you run into that nasty Rock Golem you can swap it back to level 4 and own him. :o
Thats exactly my point; instead of trying your best to make with what you have and work around the weaknesses of not having a low-level attack rune, you can just swap it down whenever you need it and swap it back up just for the giant boss. If you need a low-level attack spell, then youll want a Fire or Lightning rune, meaning youll need to bring someone with one of those runes instead of another high-damage caster who can swap the spell down. Youll be forced to work around the small weaknesses, and thats part of the challenge.
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MARchenBOY
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by MARchenBOY »

How about a unite of all elemental runes....the final spell together makes "Disaster"
vs all
dancing flames(fire/rage) first,followed by a flood(water/flowing),a Tornado(wind/cyclone),a bolt of wralth to all(lightning/thunder),an earthquake(earth/mother earth)
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KFCrispy
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by KFCrispy »

5-element unite would really go against the "magic research" history that exists in Suikoden. Crowley found out how to unite 2 elements (and in the US version, they mention 3 elements uniting.. but i don't think the japanese version actually has it). so allowing for 5 elements by any generic characters would put Crowley and his reputation to shame and completely discredit any "great magicians" in Suikoden history.
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MARchenBOY
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by MARchenBOY »

I see.....Sry about that.........
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Red rune
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by Red rune »

Crowley didnt used his full power in the gate rune wars, so maybe he lied about finding how to combine JUST two or three runes, besides knowing the persistent Crowley he might have found a way to combine 5 or more runes.
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KFCrispy
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Re: Rune Spells

Post by KFCrispy »

rune usage: how about something in the game that enables characters to use lower level spells multiple times. like you can cast 1 lvl 4 spell or 4 lvl 1 spells, or level 1 and level 3... this will make all spell levels extremely valuable and you can actually make the 4th spell a lot stronger to keep it valuable.
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