Suikoden going downhill?

A place to post news and also give your ideas about the future of the Suikoden series.
Please justify all speculations with reasons why you think such an event could happen.
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Silver Dragon Flik
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Postby Silver Dragon Flik » Sun May 21, 2006 8:28 am

I can't believe this topic is still here. After taking a break from Suikodens I have finally bought and beaten S-Tactics. It was a nice game, I expected more of the gameplay. Vandal Hearts 1 and 2 were much better SRPG's (Also made by Konami) and more challenging. But nonetheless a great addition to the Suikoden series.

maha_gnosis
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Postby maha_gnosis » Mon May 22, 2006 9:01 am

Zadiel wrote:This is what I meant by my comment.

Like Ive said before the game felt like Konami had sold the rights to another company which was brand new, didnt know how to make a good game and then they just made a game about what ever they felt like. The game did not have the FEEL of a suikoden game, thus was a waste of time in my opinion.

From my understanding Suikoden IV also was the same way in terms of it was missing the FEEL of being a Suikoden game.

There are many many different things that go into making the game feel like a suikoden game, from music to graphics to character design to old references and a whole assortment of other things.

A good reference for this would be the Castlevania Series. You have all these kick ass Castlevania games until you come to the one that was on Nintendo 64. The game was just plain bad, and thus ruined a chain of great games. The others are awesome, and there have been newer ones that were fun, but the entire chain is now flawed. I am one of the people that believe that if you didnt make the game perfect in all ways then dont make it or at the very least dont call it part of the series.

For instance if they had given Suikoden IV and III different names and just made the offshoots from the Suikoden series than I would have been happiers. Instead we have two crappy fillers to play for a few years until they bring back in the original maker of Suikoden and make Suikoden V and thus going back to what made the game great.

I cannot express this any more than I have. This is also akin to the Xenogears games. Xenogears is a classic, it has everything you would ever want in a rpg. Then comes along Xenosaga and which is just a name that they tagged to a pile to sell disks. Im tired of game companies making a great game, then making a sequal that is pure hole, but since they tagged it as a sequal you know you have to go buy it, only to find that its nothing more than a waste of $40 and 40 hours of time.

If people stopped making excuses for bad games coming out and stopped buying these games then they would stop making the games. Stupid comments like " It wasnt so bad" and "It could have been better" are just ridiculous comments. Why are you playing it and spending your time on it if it wasnt great and true to the genre.

If people just stopped making these half arse comments and decided not to buy these offshoot games that get us pissed then they woudl stop making them!!

Just admit that SIII and SIV were mere shadows to the genre and in a way they have scarred an otherwise legendary series.

How would you feel if you read "The fellowship of the Ring" and it was so mind blowing that by the time you finished it you were just like WOW. Then only to go pick up the "Twin Towers" and it be a complete let down. I mean to such a degree that it seems like the the two authors are different people.

That is how I feel about III and IV. Growing up I watched Capcom destroy the Breath of Fire series starting with III. I watched Squaresoft destroy the Xenogears saga.

I watched the Wildarms series being nutured and cut and tortured until the last one was so bad that I couldnt even finish it.

Im tired of these half ass jobs being done and yet they expect my money for it and my gratitude. No thanks, Ive got other things I can do that doesnt involve me putting money into the pockets of a company that does not respect there own work, and will use that money to make more bad games to make money off of.


Good grief...
people can't respect changes, or a thing called 'Unique' or 'One'
How could you play games when the games have the same aura?
won't it be repetitive?
I'm sure, if konami mades Suikoden 3 and so-on just the same like 2 and 1, people will lost their interrest.
They will say : "Konami doesn't have any creativeness"

some example : .hack// ... Many only played the first part and didn't do the other because they have the SAME feeling.

Then again, how can one be better if they don't change?????
Afterall, Suikoden is like our world. There are many nations, many people, time goes on...
How can one nation has the same history, hero like another???

Why don't you play again Suikoden I and II if you like their aura?
Why don't you play Xenogears instead of bashing Xenosaga that it didn't feel like Xenogear?

Why why why... my opinion are actually what Suikoden III pointed in its story.
Will you live in a world where order wins?



Suikoden's going downhill???
Nah... I just hope Konami doesn't make Suikoden II copy-cat...

Darian
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Postby Darian » Mon May 22, 2006 11:02 am

maha_gnosis wrote:Suikoden's going downhill???
Nah... I just hope Konami doesn't make Suikoden II copy-cat...


I think SV just proved you wrong on both counts. It's very similar to Suikoden II and has been praised by fans and critics for returning to the days when Suikoden was good.

Completely changing a game isn't "evolving." SIV was an enormous departure from the series and barely even resembled Suikoden.

It happens to all great series eventually.

Wraith
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Postby Wraith » Mon May 22, 2006 11:07 am

Darian wrote:
maha_gnosis wrote:Suikoden's going downhill???
Nah... I just hope Konami doesn't make Suikoden II copy-cat...


I think SV just proved you wrong on both counts. It's very similar to Suikoden II and has been praised by fans and critics for returning to the days when Suikoden was good.

Completely changing a game isn't "evolving." SIV was an enormous departure from the series and barely even resembled Suikoden.

It happens to all great series eventually.


Sadly, they can't change anything dramaticly. They can tweak the skill system and they can change the war battle system. But nothing serious. This could get boring after a while. And if they fail at those two(looking at S4...) then they just need a good story... (wich failed in S4 as well).

In other words, the only thing they have to REALLY be carefull about is the story.

Queens Knight
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Postby Queens Knight » Mon May 22, 2006 5:18 pm

Good point Wraith, Suikoden is always going to feel the same to an extent. In every installment there will be things that stay the same.

-108 Stars of Destiny/Recruiting the 108 Stars.
-A type of HQ system.
-A hero who gathers together an army.
-A True Rune will be the center of the storyline or a main part of it.
-Wars will be fought, either between seperate countries or a cival war.
-You will always have a strategist to assit you.
-Will be three type of battles, War, Duel and random/regular.
-Friendship has always played an important part in the SUikoden franchise
-Jeane and Viki, lol, and other returning characters (exception was SIV, but it took place 150 years before any other, even then Jeane and Viki showed up.
-Blacksmith system may undergo some minor changed but will remain in the Suiko series.
-Each game will take place in the Suiko univerese.

Im not saying that this is a bad thing, but certain aspects of the game will remain the same throughout the series.
The storyline will be the same as it will always carry some of the elements mentioned above it its story arc. The only thing that really changes with each new Suikoden installment is the gameplay, and even that is the same in some ways, Duel system has gone over minimal changes since S1, battle system is relatively the same, even the way the game plays out is the same in all 5, recruiting 108 SoD, getting a HQ, fighting off an army.
The only element that has really changed from each Suikoden series is the war system.

malicesoul
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Postby malicesoul » Mon May 22, 2006 7:08 pm

Well, I guess people just don't know what they want anymore. You don't want Suikoden to change, but you don't want it to stay the same either.

Lurker1
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Postby Lurker1 » Mon May 22, 2006 9:30 pm

I don't think its going downhill in fact I think that they have made some improvements with each game and with rumors of six coming out on the PS3 I think they are only going to get better.


Personally I think the FF is the one going downhill, I still don't see how people can call X-2 a good game :roll: I thought it was a horrible game myself.

maha_gnosis
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Postby maha_gnosis » Tue May 23, 2006 6:18 am

Darian wrote:
maha_gnosis wrote:Suikoden's going downhill???
Nah... I just hope Konami doesn't make Suikoden II copy-cat...


I think SV just proved you wrong on both counts. It's very similar to Suikoden II and has been praised by fans and critics for returning to the days when Suikoden was good.

Completely changing a game isn't "evolving." SIV was an enormous departure from the series and barely even resembled Suikoden.

It happens to all great series eventually.


So did Suikoden III and IV completely change? of course not.
And that's why the reason why I don't praise Suikoden V that much... because it has many similarities to Suikoden II.
Don't you know, that Suikoden III was even remarked the best in Japan although many didn't like it?
Many don't like SIV because it was too linear or not like Suikoden II... but again, Suikoden is like our world... what's the point if the two games have the same history?
Seriously, people must learn to enjoy games and appreciate them.

Anyways, FFIX was a dissapointment because it returned to the classic era.
Look Lufia the legend returns. It was a copy cat of Lufia I. And it was a big mistake.
Luckily, Suikoden V isn't completly a copy cat of Suikoden II...
trademark or not, you will end to a failure if you keep looking back.

Rezard
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Postby Rezard » Tue May 23, 2006 3:24 pm

-108 Stars of Destiny/Recruiting the 108 Stars.
-A type of HQ system.
-A hero who gathers together an army.
-A True Rune will be the center of the storyline or a main part of it.
-Wars will be fought, either between seperate countries or a cival war.
-You will always have a strategist to assit you.
-Will be three type of battles, War, Duel and random/regular.
-Friendship has always played an important part in the SUikoden franchise
-Jeane and Viki, lol, and other returning characters (exception was SIV, but it took place 150 years before any other, even then Jeane and Viki showed up.
-Blacksmith system may undergo some minor changed but will remain in the Suiko series.
-Each game will take place in the Suiko univerese.


I don´t think the real problem is the game play aspects, but the storyline:

For example:
-the hero is 16 year old, mute, peaceful boy
-the hero will be throw into a war
-the boy will lose the battles and the ally leader will die (Odessa, Anabelle, Glen, Arshatat)
-the boy becomes the leader of an army
-after he finds a strategist, he will win most battles
-his best friend dies, if the 108 stars are not collected (Gremio, Nanami,Snowe, Lyon)
-he will have to fight someone close to him, because this person has different point of view.(Teo, Jowy, Snowe,Sialedds)
-every problem is solved by the end of the game, with the destruction of the enemy’s leaders.

From game to game, the story changes, but the format stays the same. Some people hate Suikoden III because it broke this format. It has a new format.

I don’t think every game should have the same format, it becomes too predictable.
Trying something new is always a risk, yet a find this risk is worthy, since changes are necessary to improve something and the same storyline is kind of tiring.

Philweasel
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Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:25 am

Postby Philweasel » Tue May 23, 2006 5:15 pm

Rezard wrote:For example:
-the hero is 16 year old, mute, peaceful boy
-the hero will be throw into a war
-the boy will lose the battles and the ally leader will die (Odessa, Anabelle, Glen, Arshatat)
-the boy becomes the leader of an army
-after he finds a strategist, he will win most battles
-his best friend dies, if the 108 stars are not collected (Gremio, Nanami,Snowe, Lyon)
-he will have to fight someone close to him, because this person has different point of view.(Teo, Jowy, Snowe,Sialedds)
-every problem is solved by the end of the game, with the destruction of the enemy’s leaders.

Yep, all this stuff could go and I'd be very happy. Especially the
-after he finds a strategist, he will win most battles
. It seems the second the strategist strolls in the enemy become totally incompetent, it's kind of annoying. I think Suikoden II was the only one where your opponents didn't seem like incredible wusses, FF might have it's problems but it does let it's bad guys get in their shots now and then.

Darian
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Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:01 pm

Postby Darian » Tue May 23, 2006 5:41 pm

maha_gnosis wrote:And that's why the reason why I don't praise Suikoden V that much... because it has many similarities to Suikoden II.


You're in the minority there; point is void.

Don't you know, that Suikoden III was even remarked the best in Japan although many didn't like it?


Good for the Japanese; they like their generic games. Your argument is valid up until this. Yeah, SIII was a departure from Suikoden, it was a departure towards a much more generic Final Fantasy-esque cliche Japanese RPG style of gameplay and it was the start of the low in the series.

Many don't like SIV because it was too linear or not like Suikoden II... but again, Suikoden is like our world... what's the point if the two games have the same history?


You just shot yourself in the foot by pointing out that SIV was not well-recieved because of how un-like it was from the others. What's the point? The point is this: You don't fix what isn't broken.

Seriously, people must learn to enjoy games and appreciate them.


I agree but this is irrelevant.

Anyways, FFIX was a dissapointment because it returned to the classic era.


Says you.

Luckily, Suikoden V isn't completly a copy cat of Suikoden II...
trademark or not, you will end to a failure if you keep looking back.


Who's looking back? Outright changing a game is not the same as evolving its mechanics or ideas. A game franchise should adhere to the mechanics that make it successful and build on those; not throw them away or drastically alter them.

Suikoden I was a good game.

Suikoden II improved on what SI offered and it was a great game.

Suikoden III drastically changed the mechanics that made the series what it is and was watered down immensly. It was a mediocre game that was criticised heavily and was a thoroughly generic gaming experience. It sold well... yeah... with a cult franchise that's usually not a good sign.

Suikoden IV outright disregarded most elements of the series and was just a poorly made game. SIV was a bad game not because it tried to "move forward" but because it was not designed well. SIV wasn't a step forward because it tried to be different, it was a standstill because it tried to be different.

Suikoden V built on what SI and SII established and that makes it a good return to what made the series great to begin with.

Bottom line: if you want a different game then play a different game. There are certain things that I expect to see when I play a Suikoden or any part of an established franchise. If those things aren't there or have been ignored or buried under generic crap then I walk.

EDIT: Like is shwon above, while they've been tinkering (too much) trying to change the gameplay instead of evolve it, their plot devices have remained stagnant and archaic.

maha_gnosis
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Postby maha_gnosis » Wed May 24, 2006 5:15 am

Darian wrote:
maha_gnosis wrote:And that's why the reason why I don't praise Suikoden V that much... because it has many similarities to Suikoden II.


You're in the minority there; point is void.


Yes I'm... but don't you say that majority are always the right.

Darian wrote:
Many don't like SIV because it was too linear or not like Suikoden II... but again, Suikoden is like our world... what's the point if the two games have the same history?


You just shot yourself in the foot by pointing out that SIV was not well-recieved because of how un-like it was from the others. What's the point? The point is this: You don't fix what isn't broken.


I said that not because I don't like S IV... I like every Suikoden them. I pointed only that SII-fanboys hate SIV because it is unsimilar to SII...
then again, How it is suppossed to be if all nations have the same history?
Say... I don't have anyproblem to SIV... I like it.

Darian wrote:
Anyways, FFIX was a dissapointment because it returned to the classic era.


Says you.

See how much they were sold... compared to other SF FF

Darian wrote:
Luckily, Suikoden V isn't completly a copy cat of Suikoden II...
trademark or not, you will end to a failure if you keep looking back.


Who's looking back? Outright changing a game is not the same as evolving its mechanics or ideas. A game franchise should adhere to the mechanics that make it successful and build on those; not throw them away or drastically alter them.

Suikoden I was a good game.

Suikoden II improved on what SI offered and it was a great game.

Suikoden III drastically changed the mechanics that made the series what it is and was watered down immensly. It was a mediocre game that was criticised heavily and was a thoroughly generic gaming experience. It sold well... yeah... with a cult franchise that's usually not a good sign.

Suikoden IV outright disregarded most elements of the series and was just a poorly made game. SIV was a bad game not because it tried to "move forward" but because it was not designed well. SIV wasn't a step forward because it tried to be different, it was a standstill because it tried to be different.

Suikoden V built on what SI and SII established and that makes it a good return to what made the series great to begin with.

Bottom line: if you want a different game then play a different game. There are certain things that I expect to see when I play a Suikoden or any part of an established franchise. If those things aren't there or have been ignored or buried under generic crap then I walk.

EDIT: Like is shwon above, while they've been tinkering (too much) trying to change the gameplay instead of evolve it, their plot devices have remained stagnant and archaic.



Basically, saying that Suikoden III and IV don't have the Suikoden trademark are.... pitifull...
SIII, SIV didn't throw away the mechanic, they were a new addition to the series...
Yeah S V was built on SI and SII, but keep building the future Suikoden jut like SUikoden II will add a comment like 'Lack of creativity'

EDIT : SOme addition :
Yes, Indeed Suikoden had evolved into Suikoden III and IV, They were a change, and weren't a complete change. This changes are a new breakthough, to reach a Greatness. Konami simply tried to change Suikoden to pleasure us... it is why a change is needed.
Suikoden III and IV were based too from Suikoden I and II.
Last edited by maha_gnosis on Wed May 24, 2006 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Philweasel
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Postby Philweasel » Wed May 24, 2006 5:40 am

Suikoden IV stuck very much to the Suikoden formula, I can’t help but feel that you’re using this as a scapegoat. Suikoden IV if anything felt like a backlash to III, a game trying so hard to be unlike its predecessor that it ended up having no identity of its own, the ‘classic’ Suikoden features thrown together with very little love or care (Even the characters were in many cases direct copies of ones in the first two games)

I would like a combination of Suikoden II and III, with the good points of both. Not that II wasn’t great but I’ve already played it, I have no wish to play it all over again (For the 7th time… yes, I really do like that game)
V was a good, solid start, now I wouldn’t mind a little daring.

You complain about ‘generic’ RPG’s, but I’m wary of getting generic Suikodens.

Wraith
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Postby Wraith » Wed May 24, 2006 5:45 am

SIV didn't throw away the mechanic, they were a new addition to the series...


True, but it was really badly developped.


What they did in 5 was combine the S1/2 system with the S3 system(skills). So don't just say that S5 looks too similar too S2. It also has some elements from S3.

S3 was very good. I loved the game as much as I do S1 and the others( exept S4). But I just like the story in S2 more.

maha_gnosis
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Postby maha_gnosis » Wed May 24, 2006 6:14 am

Wraith : it is true :

but this statement, is what annoyed me :

"From my understanding Suikoden IV also was the same way in terms of it was missing the FEEL of being a Suikoden game.

For instance if they had given Suikoden IV and III different names and just made the offshoots from the Suikoden series than I would have been happiers. Instead we have two crappy fillers to play for a few years until they bring back in the original maker of Suikoden and make Suikoden V and thus going back to what made the game great. "


It was just like, as if Suikoden IV and III aren't Suikoden at all... afteralll they were made by the same person, team (not correctly 100% but...) and have the same formula : 108 stars, castle near water

Yeah, SV has 'some' elements from S3, like someone become enemy who opposes us....


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