Suikoden going downhill?

A place to post news and also give your ideas about the future of the Suikoden series.
Please justify all speculations with reasons why you think such an event could happen.
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Oppenheimer
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Postby Oppenheimer » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:23 pm

Now that this topic has had specific info about Suikoden V putting in it, I'm going to have to move it.

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Postby Sickpup » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:38 pm

[quote="nephlabobo
Rich boy who loses his family/home/possessions etc due to an evil lord who takes everything, boy starts an army to override him. That's why I think S3 was a really great (and the last really great) Suikoden sequel. It was different.[/quote]

(some spoilers follow)

And that's why I hated S3. To me, Suikoden is supposed to be about war and emotion. And the beginning of S3 had lots of that. But then you found out the "war" you were fighting was against imaginary monsters or something. And it turned into a quest to save the world. And to me, it seemed to just fall into the category of any FF game.

But in the other games, the world is not ending. You aren't really a "Good guy" You are just a person fighting for survival, and fighting for what you believe in. And you murder people, not because they are evil. But because they believe in something else. I have never ever felt bad killing people before in a game, until I played Suikoden and had to fight people like Ain Gide, Seed and Culgan, and Troy.

S3, it was sad fighting Luc...but eh. Getting there seemed very boring to me.
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Clangeddin
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Postby Clangeddin » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:43 pm

I still think Suikoden 3 is the best so far of the serie...
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Postby Wraith » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:49 pm

Clangeddin wrote:I still think Suikoden 3 is the best so far of the serie...


You are in title of your own opinion but there arn't many who think the same as you. Most think so of S2. I like S3 but it branches of the original Suikodens regardless of how good or not.

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Postby Atreides » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:56 pm

personally, i think S5 has wider storyline, the elements in S5 more than S2.
S5 did contribute lot of clues to holes left by the past titles.
i would say i like S5 a bit more than S2
S5 has longer and more depth storyline, lot of ups and downs, more unexpectables. but i like the friendship themes between Riou, Jowy & Nanami in S2. but i like S3 where it take place.

back to the title, i don't think suikoden will going downhill, if view the suikoden titles separately u can't predict it.
but if view all titles together, u can see it's a huge world, each title contribute some plots to the suikoden world, even the gameplay of a game doesn't good, it's still worth to play to reveal some plots to the suikoden world.

The next coming title i dunno how good it is, but i do think the suikoden world becoming more interesting with more reveals in each title.

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Zadiel
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Postby Zadiel » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:39 pm

Here are the things that made Suikoden Awesome.

o Story was brilliant
o Music was excellent
o Lots and lots of things to do at all times
o You get to recruit 108 people to your cause
o Humor is everywhere
o Characters are all individual and have quirks
o Excellent battle system
o The "look" of the game was unique
o Large scale battles
o Single Combat
o Uniqe magic system
o Mixing of clashing of all ethniticites and races


Suikoden II duplicated these things and just enhanced them, which is why Suikoden II was an excellent game.

Suikoden III In my opinion was not a good game, and heres why.

They cannibalized some of the things that made Suikoden 1&2 great and then remade the entire thing.

Instead of one character story they make four.
The graphics were dumb looking and didnt look like a suikoden game. The music was not all that great.
The story was linear and nothing special.
The character backgrounds were mostly boring, which made me not really care about most of them.
The game was a chore to finish, unlike the first two which were hot melted pleasure all the way through.

The entire time I played the game I felt like Konami had sold the rights to Suikoden off to some brand new crappy company that just took what they wanted from the older games and then decided to make up the rest on the way. I hated all of the main characters and the master plot by Luc to kill himself was one of the stupidest story arcs Ive seen in RPG history to date. Personally I wish they would wipe III from the world and pretend it had never happened.


I read the reviews of Suikoden IV and talked to some people who had played it. Pretty much to my understanding all they did was take the concept of III and make it worse. Thus I did not waste my real life time.

My friend played Suikoden Tactics and said it was like pulling teeth both in story and in game play. Pass.

Suikoden Five goes back to its roots and recreates everything that made I and II awesome. You can actually play the game and FEEL like your playing a Suikoden game, unlike III and IV.

I am eating V up like a bucket of peanut butter and chocolate ice cream. Each bite is nothing less than pure pleasure melting in my mouth.

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Postby patapi » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:15 pm

I read the reviews of Suikoden IV and talked to some people who had played it. Pretty much to my understanding all they did was take the concept of III and make it worse. Thus I did not waste my real life time.

Of all the things Suikoden IV are, what's claimed here is definitely NOT one of them.

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Comparing Suikodens

Postby Holly Spirit » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:43 pm

In my opinion, Suikoden III was the most unique of all the Suikoden installments. The graphics were the most PS2-ish. I disagree that the storyline of Suikoden III was linear. Of course not, I feel like watching a non-linear movie with some plot twists unlike its predecessors. However, I am saddened by its departure from the Suikoden I have come to embrace and love.

My most favorite was the second installment. It's the only Suikoden where there's a direct link from its predecessor and make the most out of it. In particular, given you meet the requirements, Tir becomes available as an extra character for you to use in Suikoden II.

Suikoden V reminds me a lot of Suikoden II minus the bonus of a saved data from the previous Suikoden.
It's like Suikoden V is the PS2 version of Suikoden II, graphic-wise, plot-wise and so forth.

Lightfellow85493

Postby Lightfellow85493 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:54 am

Actually, i like em all lol. except for 4. that one lacked a well structured story line and i just wasnt really feeling it. i beat it none the less but still...compared to the other suikoden games it wasnt even close to 2 or 3.

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Zadiel
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Postby Zadiel » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:22 pm

This is what I meant by my comment.

Suikoden III was flat in depth and structure. The characters had no real life in them that made me want to care about there struggles or there endeavors. You fight a miserable war on the grasslands which involves a character that I did not like and as the game went on I came to hate.

The character Thomas was boring, and when I played his story line I felt like i was playing Harvest moon on the old school gameboy, very boring after half an hour. Chris was also not a story line that I enjoyed, just tedious.

The storyline with the bearer of the thunderrune was some what interesting, but once again no feeling, no depth. If a game is working, and working great you dont reinvent it into something else. The way they made the multiple story plots in the game was mundane and usually pissed me off more than anything. Just when I come to like a character they stop the story and move to anothers.

Then when all is said and done and the whole things is at an ending you come to find that the ENTIRE point of the game was that Luc wanted to kill himself.

Like Ive said before the game felt like Konami had sold the rights to another company which was brand new, didnt know how to make a good game and then they just made a game about what ever they felt like. The game did not have the FEEL of a suikoden game, thus was a waste of time in my opinion.

From my understanding Suikoden IV also was the same way in terms of it was missing the FEEL of being a Suikoden game.

There are many many different things that go into making the game feel like a suikoden game, from music to graphics to character design to old references and a whole assortment of other things.

A good reference for this would be the Castlevania Series. You have all these kick ass Castlevania games until you come to the one that was on Nintendo 64. The game was just plain bad, and thus ruined a chain of great games. The others are awesome, and there have been newer ones that were fun, but the entire chain is now flawed. I am one of the people that believe that if you didnt make the game perfect in all ways then dont make it or at the very least dont call it part of the series.

For instance if they had given Suikoden IV and III different names and just made the offshoots from the Suikoden series than I would have been happiers. Instead we have two crappy fillers to play for a few years until they bring back in the original maker of Suikoden and make Suikoden V and thus going back to what made the game great.

I cannot express this any more than I have. This is also akin to the Xenogears games. Xenogears is a classic, it has everything you would ever want in a rpg. Then comes along Xenosaga and which is just a name that they tagged to a pile to sell disks. Im tired of game companies making a great game, then making a sequal that is pure hole, but since they tagged it as a sequal you know you have to go buy it, only to find that its nothing more than a waste of $40 and 40 hours of time.

If people stopped making excuses for bad games coming out and stopped buying these games then they would stop making the games. Stupid comments like " It wasnt so bad" and "It could have been better" are just ridiculous comments. Why are you playing it and spending your time on it if it wasnt great and true to the genre.

If people just stopped making these half arse comments and decided not to buy these offshoot games that get us pissed then they woudl stop making them!!

Just admit that SIII and SIV were mere shadows to the genre and in a way they have scarred an otherwise legendary series.

How would you feel if you read "The fellowship of the Ring" and it was so mind blowing that by the time you finished it you were just like WOW. Then only to go pick up the "Twin Towers" and it be a complete let down. I mean to such a degree that it seems like the the two authors are different people.

That is how I feel about III and IV. Growing up I watched Capcom destroy the Breath of Fire series starting with III. I watched Squaresoft destroy the Xenogears saga.

I watched the Wildarms series being nutured and cut and tortured until the last one was so bad that I couldnt even finish it.

Im tired of these half ass jobs being done and yet they expect my money for it and my gratitude. No thanks, Ive got other things I can do that doesnt involve me putting money into the pockets of a company that does not respect there own work, and will use that money to make more bad games to make money off of.

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Postby hell_tanuki » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:02 pm

Nice post :o

You won't like this one but, Suikoden III and IV weren't so bad :lol: I mean, even if the IV's story wasn't good, I like to play it sometimes. It's a short game, unlike the III... I don't know if I'll ever play the III from the beginning.
Other than that, I agree with your whole post. I'll wish the III and the IV to not be part of the main Suikoden saga, and thus the V would be the true III :?

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Postby son_michael » Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:40 pm

Zadiel wrote:For instance if they had given Suikoden IV and III different names and just made the offshoots from the Suikoden series than I would have been happiers. Instead we have two crappy fillers to play for a few years until they bring back in the original maker of Suikoden and make Suikoden V and thus going back to what made the game great.


suikoden 5 was not made by murayama, murayama had NOTHING to do with suikoden 5

Im tired of game companies making a great game, then making a sequal that is pure hole, but since they tagged it as a sequal you know you have to go buy it, only to find that its nothing more than a waste of $40 and 40 hours of time.


did you ever consider that MAYBE it was hard to recapture the magic?

If people stopped making excuses for bad games coming out and stopped buying these games then they would stop making the games.


WE DONT WANT THEM TO STOP MAKING THESE GAMES!

Stupid comments like " It wasnt so bad" and "It could have been better" are just ridiculous comments. Why are you playing it and spending your time on it if it wasnt great and true to the genre.


NOTHING IS PERFECT, this is life...in life there are dissapointments...so get over it

If people just stopped making these half arse comments and decided not to buy these offshoot games that get us pissed then they woudl stop making them!!


OR maybe if people stayed true to the series it might IMPROVE? oh wait...thats happened already!{suikoden 5}

Just admit that SIII and SIV were mere shadows to the genre and in a way they have scarred an otherwise legendary series.


NO

I loved suikoden 3 for the character development and the 5 true runes and for lots of other reasons. I liked suikoden 4 because it focused the whole story around the rune of punishment and the cinematics were awsome and it greatly improved on alot of things that the other games were so good in, not to mention the beautiful character development for snowe




BOTTOM LINE

every suikoden game was different, different systems, different story, different gameplay ect ect

Suikoden has always been different and if every installment was suikoden 2 than suikoden would be dead already

MANY people loved suiko 3, MANY people liked suikoden 4, MANY love suikoden 5....some people like/ love S3 and others hate S3

know why some people love suiko 3 and other dont? because its DIFFERENT and suikoden needs that element in every game. although 5 is simmilar to S2 it STILL has its own unique feel to it

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Postby Eyedol » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:00 pm

Zadiel wrote:If a game is working, and working great you dont reinvent it into something else.


If that was case, 10 years from now we would play Suikoden (XXV?) and yawn at how much it feels like Suikoden I ... provided the series would manage to stay alive that long (i.e. still manage to attract buyers).

That case works with sports game (notably NHL Hockey and FIFA series), but not with RPGs.

Zadiel wrote:Then when all is said and done and the whole things is at an ending you come to find that the ENTIRE point of the game was that Luc wanted to kill himself.


That's one possibility, yes, but not the sole one; was the entire point of the game that? Or merely the spoiler of a backdrop in which personal dillemmas were portrayed, such as the Grasslanders' and Zexens' mutual hatred giving way to an alliance, and the possibility (even if just the possibility) of future coexistence?

And Luc wished to destroy his True Rune, as much as he wanted to kill himself given where (or rather, what) his True Rune was attached to. He foretells a gray and stagnant future for the world, if things proceeded the way they are; thus, another reason behind his actions.

Zadiel wrote:I cannot express this any more than I have. This is also akin to the Xenogears games. Xenogears is a classic, it has everything you would ever want in a rpg. Then comes along Xenosaga and which is just a name that they tagged to a pile to sell disks.


Xenogears is a classic, but it's also a classic example of many bad things. The gameplay was its saving aspect. While the plot and premise of the game are great, the story is too convoluted for players to make something out of it; "babble" is thrown randomly (when Id mentions metempsychotic memories during the events at Zohar Cave, there isn't even an attempt to explain what Metempsychosis is supposed to be; for a game aimed at a T-rated audience, it's at best presumptuous to assume players know what it is). Localization is arguably one of the worst (the AIRD conversion into AERODS and the insertion of a meaning to that acronym is by far, the most bizarre). Characters (and their development) are good, if you can rule out the eventual Marias and Chu-Chus.

Xenosaga stands on its own merits ... at least it did as far as Episode I. If anything, it included an in-game encyclopedia to keep track of all possibly unknown terms referred by characters and the plot.

(You'll be delighted to hear that Xenosaga failed on its premise to deliver 6 Episodes and that its final installment, Episode III: Also Sprach Zarathrustra will end the series on July 6th [Japan] and sometime this Fall [US].)

Zadiel wrote:If people stopped making excuses for bad games coming out and stopped buying these games then they would stop making the games. Stupid comments like "It wasnt so bad" and "It could have been better" are just ridiculous comments. Why are you playing it and spending your time on it if it wasnt great and true to the genre.

If people just stopped making these half arse comments and decided not to buy these offshoot games that get us pissed then they woudl stop making them!!


Unfortunately, a reviewer has to be impartial; and a game has to be accessible for both veterans and newcomers, unless you are shooting for a really small, niche market. He/She has to review it for what they are: entertainment products.

In that light, it's hard for them to disqualify games simply because they "failed" to deliver all the hopes and dreams fans were expecting. And that too is open to interpretation.

Zadiel wrote:That is how I feel about III and IV. Growing up I watched Capcom destroy the Breath of Fire series starting with III. I watched Squaresoft destroy the Xenogears saga.


Breath of Fire IV and Dragon Quarter are hardly "bad games", "could have been better"s ... it's understandable if they didn't get your seal of approval, and that Dragon Quarter shooted for something radically different from the previous installments.

Xenogears (and for that, Xenosaga as well) is an overly ambitious project; knowing the limitations of the development team and how to stay on a schedule should be a key talent for a Producer.
son_michael wrote:I don't understand why I need so much evidence to speculate about something
Wraith wrote:I find it rather annoying to need so much support in order to speculate.

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Kak
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Postby Kak » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:26 am

Zadiel wrote:
....................
I am one of the people that believe that if you didnt make the game perfect in all ways then dont make it or at the very least dont call it part of the series.

...................


that's a great concept, like peace in the world and efective actions to end with world hunger, but unfortunately this is not the way the world is.

videogame companies need money to run and keep shareholders happy. Imagine somebody which sells bread, and every day its bread is not as good as the first day then they stop selling. Try to build this company and you'll have a quality award, but you'll be broken in some weeks.

and about making it not a suikoden part of the series... yeah, it'd be great to see the publicity (if any): 108 chars, 27 true runes, lots of runes. But keep in mind it's not a suikoden, please!!! (c)Konami

I personally liked 3, didn't like 4, and loved 5. But there'd have been no 5 without 3 for "economical" reasons (they'd go broke if they wouldn't sell its games)

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Liam
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Postby Liam » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:36 pm

First Suikoden was fantastic game at that time. It had hear, sole and few things never seen before in role playing world.

Suikoden2 did impossible. He was so much better than first game that it was unbeliveable. They improved absolutley everything there, add some very impressive stuff along the way and let You play with your character from the first game. (Best game ever).

And everything since was step in wrong direction except from this last game that tried to coppy Suikoden2, but never had a story or characters of that quality.

I hate how locations, characters, even people on streets are designed in this last game.
Liam O'veigh, The best swordsman in all Evergreen, beater of Maldon and bodyguard of queen Rose


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