Suikoden going downhill?

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Jman
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Jman » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:29 pm

If it weren't for a relative of mine, I would not know what suikoden is today. Back in 1998 a realtive of mine bought suikoden II for my birthday. He knew I liked RPG's so he picked that one up. When I saw the game and the back of the case, I was pretty thrilled. I was thinking "hmm Suikoden II eh? Lets give this a whirl". Popped it in and loved EVERY second of it.

I wanted to try the first Suikoden badly after that but it took be 8 years before I would ever play it. When I found it I liked every second of that one too. Now I have mixed feelings about Suikoden III...Sometimes I liked it...sometimes I didn't. There is so much balance between the good and bad aspects that I cannot decide. I actually prefer Suikoden IV over III just because it had faster paced battles and the rune spells did not take ages to cast and the animation to complete. I was also GLAD that the trinity site system was gone . Honestly I thought it was just playing the same events over with a different character. It could have been cool and I respected them for trying something different..but it just wasn't my thing. I

didn't mind that the characters were fairly bland in the Suikoden IV, but I still thought it was pretty fun ALTHOUGH sailing did get quite tedious at times. Got to love the good ol R1 button.

Suikoden V was a GREAT suikoden...almost better than 2 in my book. I still need to do a second playthrough and recruit everyone this time around when I ever can get around to it. I forgot much about it but from I remember It was loads of fun.

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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Author » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:20 am

Jman wrote:Suikoden V was a GREAT suikoden...almost better than 2 in my book. I still need to do a second playthrough and recruit everyone this time around when I ever can get around to it. I forgot much about it but from I remember It was loads of fun.


Agreed. They wanted to try something new in S3, which disappointed a few and impressed some fans. S4 is probably another test and S5 was just a success. With the latest Tierkreis coming, yeeyeyeyeyy

highwind44029
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby highwind44029 » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:56 am

I find it hard to truly understand why people thought Suikoden III was bad. It was almost perfect. You think Chris is evil, but it turns out she wasn't; it was because of Sarah's spell. I thought it was nice to see each of the three's views on how things went down. The story was one huge knot, which gradually unfolded, and if you look at it in retrospect, it was truly a brilliant masterpiece.

I admit I was pretty shallow when it first came out because I hated it for stupid reasons. Lack of Viktor/Flik, too much time gap between Suikoden II and III (15 years, compared to the previous gap which was 3), the main hero isn't the Tenkai Star, transition towards 3D, stuff like that... now my only true gripe about it is the buddy system, because it restricts some freedom during battles, but I have learned to work my way around that too. The skills system was great. It added depth to the characters. It was overall a fantastic game.

I had lots of complaints about Suikoden IV. First off, the four-party system. Yuck! Second, weak spells. They should have learned that since Suikoden II, physical attacks majorly trump magical attacks, and yet they still nerfed the spells. Yuck! Third, the monsters... they should at least change monsters on the world map every now and then. I hate those freakin' Fly Lizards and Jellyfish Men. I just CAN'T with them! I CAN'T!!! Fourth, battle character management. They already displayed all battle characters when forging or attaching runes during Suikoden II and III. Why didn't they do it with IV??? Geez... Still... it was a decent game. Definitely the weakest out of the bunch, but it was still good. New Game+ was a good addition.

The only thing that I have noticed going downhill in Suikoden (at least for the last two titles anyway) is the lack of challenge from battles. I remember getting my ass kicked by the freakin' Dragon Zombie in SI, Bone Dragon in SII, Water Dragon in SIII (omg all of them are dragons) but as of late, bosses have been a breeze, especially in Suikoden V. True Men Formation Skill = one-turn win. =\

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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Author » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:55 am

Well, some wild battles were a bit hard and there were a lot of duels and large scale wars so I think they intentionally weakened some of the bosses, especially the last boss.

highwind44029
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby highwind44029 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:23 am

Does that mean I was just too good for the game? I honestly really did not have any difficulty with anything at all. I mean, I didn't get some items from large-scale battles, but that's about it.

Also, another gripe I had with both Suikoden IV and Suikoden V. Why must all the characters start with a Level 1 weapon and join like almost-naked as far as equipment goes? I think that takes away from wanting to diversify your party. During Suikoden IV, I stuck with like 7 people (Lazlo, Lino En Kuldes, Jeane, Kika, Ted, Maxine, Snowe) because you had to have like over one million potch just to forge somebody's weapon from Level 1 to Level 16. =\

It was more manageable during Suikoden V because of Egbert and purchasable Prosperity Rings, but it was still pretty bad.

I still say that Suikoden III was very underrated. It was a victim of expectations. They tried to do something new, and it was great, but a lot of "fans" objected to it. I personally think they should do something like that again, but I'm not sure if they are willing to take that risk...

abs
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby abs » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:02 am

suikoden 5 was the easiest in terms of diffuculty fighting monsters, but that did not matter since the game was great, plot wise super great....... lets just hope tierkreis ofers challenging bosses

Aculias
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Aculias » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:34 am

Alot of people seem to like S4 the least out of the 4.
I hear that there are only 4 characters.
Not enough runes.
Battles should be longer.It goes on.

I think it can reflect on real life history as well many years ago.

You got to remember, S4 was based App 150 yrs ago or so.
People thought differently. Some of those runes mentioned was probally not even created until later.
Weapons & thought process was alot different then with the modern times.
People relied on naval battles because this was an Island nation.

Plus you got to remember Kooluk is one nation against like 6-7 other nations.
They were thin on men & they had to spread their defenses accordingly.
Snow & his father did not help in the process when Razril was taken over.
Strategy took over Odel. As well as before. You can not have too many men on one island when most of Kooluks forces was based on Kooluk fortress & land.
Only so much even the Kooluk nation can do.

Governor of Kooluk was overthrown without anyone knowing. Graham Clay ran things the way he seemed fit.
He wanted the Rune. I dont think he cared about the towns as much.
He took over Kooluk & was in charge even when the Governor was alive.
It was all Clay & his ideas.
He only cared about the rune.

That i believe is why Razril & Odel was taken so easily.
Reminds me of Ancient Rome.
They conquered so many land that their forces was too thin.
Taxes was raised, food & currency. Fighting Among themselves.
Only so many soldiers can be spared.
Something as with Razril & Odel.

KFCrispy
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:23 am

Aculias wrote:You got to remember, S4 was based App 150 yrs ago or so.
People thought differently. Some of those runes mentioned was probally not even created until later.
Weapons & thought process was alot different then with the modern times.
People relied on naval battles because this was an Island nation.

the fact is that the gameplay features were extremely lacking, and being set 150 years earlier is not the reason it was so backwards. most runes are naturally formed, like Thunder Runes, and they're available in the game. going to a 4-person party without using range in any way follows the generic RPGs rather than the Suikoden standard. the fact that you could not manage your party in HQ shops unless the character was actually in your party was stepping back to the days of Suikoden I; gameplay features should be improved or at least maintain past installments' features for any new game.

On top of this, people agree that the story and character development is piss-poor for this game, and you will only understand the story if you play Tactics or read more on the web, where information from Japanese publications is widespread. Most importantly, this game lacked emotion.

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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Antimatzist » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:21 pm

That i believe is why Razril & Odel was taken so easily.
Reminds me of Ancient Rome.
They conquered so many land that their forces was too thin.
Taxes was raised, food & currency. Fighting Among themselves.
Only so many soldiers can be spared.

lol, what kind of comparison is that one?


However, KFCrispy is right. It lacked soooo much... I mean there are about 10 Onehandsword-Swords(wo)men, which all fight the same or have the same background... nothing! Even Freed Yamamoto was some kind of interesting charakter, and compared to S IV charakters, he has depth

But I have to agree on one thing: I think the graphics look pale, because the game takes place in the past. It's like watching an old film/old photos and the colours are somehow washed out. But the rest was more than disappointing.

Nikanoru

Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Nikanoru » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:23 pm

highwind44029 wrote:I thought it was nice to see each of the three's views on how things went down.

I liked this concept in S3, but I don't think it should have been mandatory to play through all 3 scenarios. The break between actually continuing the story and being forced to replay the same event over and over and over again (albeit very cool being able to see it from different angles), was maddening. I love S1 and S2 because of the fluidity of the combat. You could set all to attack and bam, it just flows like water. S3 slowed down the combat so much to the point of frustration. I've never been able to play S3 a second time because of it. I really like the game too. I've played S1,2,4,5 each about a half dozen times or more.

S4 was great. The only problem I had is it just felt bland and devoid of spirit at times. Sailing was excruciating. If you're going to have something as mind boggling as sailing (especially when you don't have a solidly clear heading most of the time), you should NEVER include random monster encounters. It just shouldn't be done. The sailing aspect was actually really well done, but having monster encounters were infuriating.

Suikoden 5 was about as perfect as could be. Although I really miss the series moving forward. S1 and 2 were perfect games. They were easily 2 of the best RPGs I've ever had the pleasure of playing. They were well made and fun. But what made them really stand out was the connection between the two. The fact that you could transfer data. Recurring characters and seeing them age and finding out where they've been. Continuation of the bigger plot. Among other things.

S3 was a good solid game with some pretty big glaring flaws. S4 and 5 were both also exceptionally great games. They just lacked the spark that made Suikoden Suikoden. In my opinion.

I hope that Suikoden 6 takes place after Suikoden 3 and *FINALLY* moves forward in the timeline. If they really feel the need to visit the past, they can do so with flashbacks or time travel (a la meeting Ted when he acquired the soul eater in S1).

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Mio
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Mio » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:13 am

nah, Suikoden took a minor setback during SIV and Tactics

for obvious reasons

but other than that, i think they've been stable

i mean the rest was good

Aculias
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Aculias » Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:33 am

LOL yea i know he is right.
I was just thinking hypothetically from a past sence to make it more interesting.

The example i meant was this.

Romans conquered alot of land.
So much that money was an issue. Fighting among each other.
Most important of all was the forces was spread too thin.
Me & you could evade Rome from the North west also :P

I meant that with the Kooluk also.
Their forces was spread too thin probally.
Being only one nation, you cant expect a whole army to guard one nation they have captured.
I think some of the plans backfired on the Kooluk with a brilliant Silverberg mind.
There was a bigger goal.

I love this game because the countries, the civilians. Armies.
It's almost like you can feel what they are feeling. Being at war or being home with their families.
Every nation is different.
Even without Hearing Tir, you can almost feel his pain.

It's like reading a real history book with emotion.

LanceHeart
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby LanceHeart » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:07 pm

highwind44029 wrote:I find it hard to truly understand why people thought Suikoden III was bad. It was almost perfect. You think Chris is evil, but it turns out she wasn't; it was because of Sarah's spell. I thought it was nice to see each of the three's views on how things went down. The story was one huge knot, which gradually unfolded, and if you look at it in retrospect, it was truly a brilliant masterpiece.

I admit I was pretty shallow when it first came out because I hated it for stupid reasons. Lack of Viktor/Flik, too much time gap between Suikoden II and III (15 years, compared to the previous gap which was 3), the main hero isn't the Tenkai Star, transition towards 3D, stuff like that... now my only true gripe about it is the buddy system, because it restricts some freedom during battles, but I have learned to work my way around that too. The skills system was great. It added depth to the characters. It was overall a fantastic game.

I think my biggest gripe from the franchise moving to 3D is that the entire battle system was considerably slowed down, with Suikoden 3 getting the brunt of the blow since the buddy system made everything considerably slower. Suikoden V almost fixed it, with re-enabling melee combat, but still felt ludicrously slow if you tried to activate any unites or spells.

The thing I've liked most from the first two games is the speed of battles. It was easy to input all of your commands and watch the battle ensue very quickly before you got back to inputting commands. Short of boss battles, I took pride in dealing with mixed enemy parties without immediately hammering "Auto".

Surprisingly, Suikoden Tierkreis' gameplay videos seem to show fast action and short animation times. That's exactly what I've been waiting for in a 3D Suikoden. Here's hoping they take a page from that style and apply it to the next console game.
Formerly known as: Gothann

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Chaco
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Chaco » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:00 pm

I have a few things to say

1) I LOVE Suikoden 3, I think it has an exellent story line and characters who were lovable. Chris Lightfellow is amazing. Although I liked Luc it was a nice plot twist.

2) Suikoden 4 was the worst in the series BUT it was a good stand alone game.

3) I think Tierkries is the biggest risk, but perhapes it's a game they threw together so we wouldn't get to impatient for the hopefully upcoming Suikoden 6
These wings arn't just for show you know!
-Chaco

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Nemesis
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Re: Suikoden going downhill?

Postby Nemesis » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:03 am

In my perspective, GS1 and 2 are the greatest =) Part 3 was dull... part 4 was dull when sailing.. part 5 was pretty nice. I like the song at the raft village. BUT! There is a pretty big but here. JEane dress like an elephant. THE END!
Nick Bruiser


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