How about Thief instructors?

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How about Thief instructors?

Postby sticky-runes » Thu May 29, 2014 12:35 pm

So, some of the Suikoden games gave us characters who functioned as combat instructors and magical tutors, but it seemed kind of silly to me that either of these characters would train people to be better using certain unique skills such as finding treasure and stealing potch. I just have a hard time imagining Zegai teaching Raven how to mug his victims better, or Zerase telling Lorelai how to improve her treasure hunting skills.

Does anyone think it would be a good idea if we could recruit instructors that specialized in skills that are more suited to thief and trickster type characters? That way, the Combat instructor could stick to raising physical strength, technique and armoring, magic tutors could stick to Magic and magic defense and elemental affinities, and the thiefy type instructor could benefit characters with unique skills such as potch finder and treasure hunter, and perhaps include lessons on more common skills such as luck and evasion. Any thoughts on this :?:

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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu May 29, 2014 1:39 pm

Good idea for a Genso Robin Hood, but Suikoden characters form a rebel army that relies on trained soldiers, not a robber gang that relies on profit from raids.

There are only very few thieves / treasure hunters, and especially thieves are not considered the most prestigious/noble among the SOD. Sometimes I think these characters are not recruited BECAUSE they can steal, but ALTHOUGH they are thieves. I don’t think many SOD actually like Krin, Hoi or Raven; for stealing missions most would probably prefer a disciplined ninja.

Anyway, since they are too few, I don’t think a special tutor is necessary.
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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby sticky-runes » Thu May 29, 2014 3:21 pm

Wolkendrache wrote:Good idea for a Genso Robin Hood, but Suikoden characters form a rebel army that relies on trained soldiers, not a robber gang that relies on profit from raids.


Suikoden practically is a Robin Hood story. And, do players not spend a lot of time raiding dungeons for cash and useful items, such as rare runes and equipment, from killing monsters?

Wolkendrache wrote:There are only very few thieves / treasure hunters, and especially thieves are not considered the most prestigious/noble among the SOD. Sometimes I think these characters are not recruited BECAUSE they can steal, but ALTHOUGH they are thieves. I don’t think many SOD actually like Krin, Hoi or Raven; for stealing missions most would probably prefer a disciplined ninja.

Anyway, since they are too few, I don’t think a special tutor is necessary.


Again, not just rare skills, but also speed/agility/evasion/luck type skills, which everyone has (remember S5 gave us combinations of skill enhancements). So even characters without money making talents could still get some use out of them, we'd have the opportunity to speed up slower characters.

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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu May 29, 2014 3:46 pm

sticky-runes wrote:Suikoden practically is a Robin Hood story. And, do players not spend a lot of time raiding dungeons for cash and useful items, such as rare runes and equipment, from killing monsters?

There are lots of similarities as well as differences, for example robber band hiding in the forest vs. rebel army attacking and defending cities. I mean, regarding dungeon-looting, gameplay-wise I pretty much agree to you, but storyline-wise it's a little strange imho.

sticky-runes wrote:Again, not just rare skills, but also speed/agility/evasion/luck type skills, which everyone has (remember S5 gave us combinations of skill enhancements). So even characters without money making talents could still get some use out of them, we'd have the opportunity to speed up slower characters.

Ah ok, you mean someone like Hanzo as tutor for these skills. So the physical skills (including some specials) are split in two for 2 different kinds of physical tutors. Ok, why not.

Who could have done this in the respective Suikoden Games? A tutor should be experienced, not too young. S1 = Kage? S2 = Mondo, Genshu? S5 = no idea...
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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby sticky-runes » Fri May 30, 2014 5:13 am

Wolkendrache wrote:Ah ok, you mean someone like Hanzo as tutor for these skills. So the physical skills (including some specials) are split in two for 2 different kinds of physical tutors. Ok, why not.

Who could have done this in the respective Suikoden Games? A tutor should be experienced, not too young. S1 = Kage? S2 = Mondo, Genshu? S5 = no idea...


I would think Sydonia would be a suitable choice for S1. He was a high ranking bandit, and had tricks that even Varkas didn't know about, so he could help characters like Kasumi, Krin and Stallion unlock some of their potential. I guess Juppo's not a bad choice, but we know how stingy he was with his tricks, since he wouldn't even help his own niece.
I always imagined Kai as the combat instructor (and possibly Eikei) and Hellion as the magic tutor (and Crowley later on)

for Suikoden 2, perhaps Sid. He was sneaky, and agility rather than brute strength seems to be a strong point for the wingers. Zamza was the official magic tutor, while combat skills could have been taught by Georg or L.C. Chan.

Suikoden 4 was full of pirates and smuggler types. Maybe one of the Lo siblings (or all 3 of them) Reinhold was essentially the combat instructor, while Konrad was a professional magic tutor.

Of course, I'm not suggesting they go about remaking all the games just for the sake of adding these features, I'm just using those characters as examples. If there were to be a new Suikoden game, we'd have no idea what new or old characters would be in it.

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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri May 30, 2014 6:31 am

Perhaps there could be some more changes in the system, because tutors are not a bad idea. What I’m thinking of is…

Tutors:
- Instead of sharpening weapons, training is what gives the permanent attack boost (seems more logical). There could still be 15 or 16 attack training levels.
- Apart from weapon training, tutors also train skills such as Bull’s Eye, Parry and whatnot.
- There are 4 different tutors: one for missile weapons, one for common melee weapons, one for martial arts and special weapons (Fist, Claw, Staff etc.), and one for magic skills.

Blacksmith:
- Weapons get blunt or damaged, thus decreasing attack stat, so you must visit the blacksmith once in a while to refresh the stat by sharpening the weapons.
- At 2 certain points in the game, the blacksmith can give all weapons a general boost, and weapon name changes go along with it to keep that tradition.

And everything (or at least weapon training and sharpening) is paid with money.
What do you think about that?
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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby sticky-runes » Fri May 30, 2014 7:41 am

I quite like the blunt/damaged weapons idea, kind of like a status effect that you get "cured" by visiting a blacksmith.

Blacksmiths became almost redundant in S5 because they took away the rune attribute ability, and gave us those crappy magic sword orbs that take up a slot on the body, so they should bring back the ability to attach elemental and status attributes to weapons, as I wrote about in another thread.

I also wouldn't mind if they brought back Adrienne's ability to craft new equipment from materials.

And yes, individual trainers for different weapon styles would be pretty awesome. So for example, Sydonia not only provides upgrades to Krin's potch finder and Lorelai's treasure hunt skills, he can also help improve the damage and accuracy/critical rate of Cleo and Eileen's knife throwing attacks and increase their chances of a "long throw" (where multiple targets take damage from a single attack) or improve a character's use of the kite rune.

Suikoden 1 had lots of archers, so they'd have benefited from an archery instructor (Kirkis or Ruby perhaps) but archers seemed to become increasingly rare throughout the sequels, so if it happens there's not a decent mix of archers and knife throwers, then just stick to one trainer who improves all L-range skills.

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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby Antimatzist » Fri May 30, 2014 7:50 am

- There are 4 different tutors: one for missile weapons, one for common melee weapons, one for martial arts and special weapons (Fist, Claw, Staff etc.), and one for magic skills.

That would just make some characters very unbalanced during the game. until you get their instructor, they will be less powerful than those characters with an instructor.

- Weapons get blunt or damaged, thus decreasing attack stat, so you must visit the blacksmith once in a while to refresh the stat by sharpening the weapons.

I really dislike games in which weapons break/get dull after a certain amount of uses, so no.

Blacksmiths became almost redundant in S5 because they took away the rune attribute ability, and gave us those crappy magic sword orbs that take up a slot on the body, so they should bring back the ability to attach elemental and status attributes to weapons, as I wrote about in another thread.

No, instead, they should try and make the Elemental Sword Runes more useful and diverse. Equipping them could already give a small bonus (e.g. Earth Sword Rune would give +5% defense, but decreases your speed, water rune adds small auto-regen, but decreases attack etc), and the spells should be generally more useful.

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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri May 30, 2014 8:24 am

Antimatzist wrote:That would just make some characters very unbalanced during the game. until you get their instructor, they will be less powerful than those characters with an instructor.

Just like skill tutors in S5, you'll also find specific tutors in (many) particular towns.

Antimatzist wrote:I really dislike games in which weapons break/get dull after a certain amount of uses, so no.

They wouldn't break or get useless, just some att-decrease. It's just more realistic. Well, some people like it that way, some don't...

Antimatzist wrote:No, instead, they should try and make the Elemental Sword Runes more useful and diverse. Equipping them could already give a small bonus (e.g. Earth Sword Rune would give +5% defense, but decreases your speed, water rune adds small auto-regen, but decreases attack etc), and the spells should be generally more useful.

Personally, I prefer the elemental attribute attached to the weapon, but then it should be calculated into all attacks (normal, command runes, unites). If some good ideas on Elemental Sword Runes are applied to make them more diverse, then it's fine, otherwise they are obsolete.
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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby sticky-runes » Fri May 30, 2014 9:19 am

If they started bringing in weapon damage, then it could only be a risk when fighting specific enemies, such as devil shields, and certain bosses. Supernatural weapons, like the star Dragon Sword, could be immune to it.

An alternative would be to use blacksmiths for armor maintenance. Suikoden 3 had all those broken suits of armor that you replace with new versions later on - maybe if we find broken or rusted pieces of equipment, and get a blacksmith to repair and improve them. So, if you find a rusted dragon armor, it offers +25 defence. Get the blacksmith to upgrade it to polished dragon armor which now offers +55 defence. and then later on you can have him upgrade it to perfect dragon armor, and at it's highest level it offers +85 defence and a fire protection bonus, something like that.
And gear such as tunics, robes and jewellery that is meant for magic users, and all the flashy outfits that narcissists wear, could be upgraded by a tailor.

I never liked the magic sword orbs. They were all right in Tactics, because of the terrain effects, but in 3 and 5 they were pretty useless. It was much better in 2 when you had the effect attached to your weapon and you didn't need to waste a turn activating the the effect, it just worked automatically. Same with sleep/silence/magic drain, they should all have been attached to weapons, leaving the bodily slots free for other runes.

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Re: How about Thief instructors?

Postby Antimatzist » Fri May 30, 2014 11:46 am

It was much better in 2 when you had the effect attached to your weapon and you didn't need to waste a turn activating the the effect, it just worked automatically. Same with sleep/silence/magic drain, they should all have been attached to weapons, leaving the bodily slots free for other runes.

That's why I want that the system changes completely. Fighters mostly only get one or two rune slots and it should be hard to decide which rune to equip on them, that'd allow for more tactical versility and maybe difficulty.


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