No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

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Sylo
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby Sylo » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:13 pm

I disliked trading. Ive always preferred making money in other ways, such as mini-games and hunting big groups of enemies. I dont believe the payoff is motivation enough in trading.

My opinion is purely based from SII, as my memory escapes me concerning the other games >.>
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bluemask
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby bluemask » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:21 am

While I understand why trading is disliked by many, because it defeats its purpose as a profit-making business. I think they should have created a more interesting stuff about it like trading-only acquired items/runes or if it includes a mini-game to make it a lot better.

Maybe I'll change my decision that they should really remove the system if majority disagrees with my liking of it lol.

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ninjaluc79
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby ninjaluc79 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:40 am

Since Suikoden is a JRPG with politics on it, I actually find trading realistic, despite us RPG gamers accepting the logic that "money comes from monsters", when in fact it's false. RPG developers simply added monetary gain for defeating monsters to make things simple, because really, trying to explain how adventurers earn money isn't always worth the hassle.

I think the problem with trading lies on 1) implementation, and 2) violation of RPG logic. I'm not saying they implemented it poorly, it's just that you think, "If I want money, I'll just grind from monsters". Before you think that Suikoden forces you to trade just to recruit an SoD, merchants are actually a vital part of a nation's progress. Most real life nations thrived through trading. The Barter (you exchange your goods for somebody else's), The Galleon Trade, and Imports/Exports are good examples of trading systems.

And as a leader of a rising nation like how Suikoden heroes are portrayed, if you suck at business or at dealing with merchants, you suck as a leader, period.

As I said, Suikoden is a JRPG with politics, so it makes sense that it would try to emulate how people lived during the ancient times, given Suikoden's medieval flavor.

If I wanted a more realistic Suikoden, I would agree on removing the monetary rewards from enemies, and instead replacing it with a trading system where you get to trade items acquired from enemies for money or for even more powerful items. That way, Suikoden trading doesn't feel like it's forced. Another side effect would be that you can get more powerful items... if you want to grind for it.
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Pyriel
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby Pyriel » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:04 am

Too much reality in a video game is a bad thing. For the ultimate example of this, play Desert Bus. In order to incorporate something in a game realism is an issue, but you also have to find a way to make it fun or interesting. They obviously didn't make you lead trading caravans across the plains because that would be tedious and time consuming, but reducing the trading to teleporting around to exchange air just lessens the blow. That's why enemies drop money in the first place. It's the easiest way to get money to the player while letting them enjoy the game.

Letting enemies drop only stuff works too, as long as there's a chance they'll drop cool stuff, and as long as there isn't some silly economic simulation running where prices fluctuate and supply and demand are randomly tweaked. If I kill a raccoon for its pelt, I expect to be able to go to town and sell it immediately, not get some lesson on overabundance, or have to go grind my "skinning" skill since the local buyer is closed and I can't have a rotting carcass in my inventory. Suikoden's trading has never worked like this in the games I've played. It's just a set of menus that you can only access from special places, and then you have to make your way to another designated spot to use another menu. If they swapped that out for some central exchange, accessible from every town, that might be OK.

"Treasure Delayed" is kind of annoying RPG trick to pad things out, though. Having an enemy drop an item that's only useful as a store of value is a little more realistic, but it just adds an extra step to playing the game that isn't really necessary. They'd have to plan that out pretty well, because most games that do that sort of thing tend to lose the thread or get lazy after a while, and eventually you have enemies that drop nothing but gemstones you can sell, but that serve no other purpose. As an aside, having enemies that drop treasure maps leading back to mundane places you've already seen, so you can press the "search" button on them once you have a pickaxe is something I could probably do without too. Especially when the treasure is junk. Just give me the +2 Ring of Water Resistance when I beat the demon and leave it alone.

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sticky-runes
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby sticky-runes » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:36 pm

ninjaluc79 wrote:If I wanted a more realistic Suikoden, I would agree on removing the monetary rewards from enemies, and instead replacing it with a trading system where you get to trade items acquired from enemies for money or for even more powerful items. That way, Suikoden trading doesn't feel like it's forced. Another side effect would be that you can get more powerful items... if you want to grind for it.


See, I wouldn't mind if it yielded more rewards, like you reach a certain amount from trading, and somebody rewards you with a rare piece of equipment or a rare rune. But sometimes the only additional use they came up with from using trading posts was getting spices for cooking different snacks - another skippable part of the game. :x

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EstrangedIX
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby EstrangedIX » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:39 pm

I don't mind trading but I wouldn't want it in place of enemy drops. I've always rationalized that as them just being magpies with things they would've taken from other people. Coins are shiny so it would make sense for them to take it from whatever random travelers. I like that we can get equipment and such from enemies and by looting corpses. If it isn't something we can use, we sell it off. Not complicated and makes sense. I also don't mind trading to recruit, or using trading as additional income while grinding. The lottery in III was good for that since it needed time to turn over. Buy tickets, fight random area boss, cash in tickets. Use trading the same way and it really doesn't feel like something extra or tedious. I guess if someone just wants to burn through without grinding then it could be annoying, but I don't get why people rush these games anyway unless it's for something like Clive's quest. Might just be me though since I like to take my time with them.
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sticky-runes
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby sticky-runes » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:12 pm

I guess if someone just wants to burn through without grinding then it could be annoying, but I don't get why people rush these games anyway unless it's for something like Clive's quest. Might just be me though since I like to take my time with them.


It's hardly got anything to do with burning through the game, since I like taking my time with a game as well, but there are better pastimes available in most of the games anyway. Suikoden 2 has the whole cooking sub-story which has loads of extra scenes. There are also bathing scenes to try out, investigations that let you learn facts about your characters, treasure hunting and different kinds of sub-games, and just general wandering through areas to try out different characters in combat and build up their levels. If they came up with a way to make trading more interesting, then great, but as it is, it's kind of tedious.

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ninjaluc79
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby ninjaluc79 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:06 pm

Well, trading is a Suikoden staple, so I don't think it would be removed.

In ancient history, spices are one of the most likely to be traded with because they were incredibly rare at those times (unlike today when you can just grow and sell them directly in the market). The other is antiques. And by trading antiques, merchants share their culture with their clients. That's my explanation about why Suikoden tends to have you trade spices and antiques. Well, since some antiques are actually rare monster drops in-game...

My above post was just my idea for a realistic Suikoden. I recognize that this is a JRPG, so it's not supposed to be realistic, I guess.

Well, the good thing with trading and cook-offs is that they're completely optional unless you're required to do so to recruit a SoD. With the sheer amount of characters to be recruited and items to be acquired, it's safe to say that Suikoden is a JRPG for completionists, though there may be other JRPGs that reward 100% completion better.

An example of a trading/cook-off combination done well is Suikoden 2, simply because a lot of people found Hai Yo's side quest very interesting, considering Konami's penchant for linking the games together.
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EstrangedIX
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby EstrangedIX » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:51 pm

The cook-off was made of awesome. One of the best mini-games, right up there with the theater imho. As per my burning through comment, I was thinking of people like my former roommate who thought that the goal of any game was to beat it in less than 10 hours by going straight from one plot point to the next nonstop. Also, I can see why someone who's played through a few times might try a speed run for the sake of challenge. I wasn't trying to criticize, and I apologize if I came off that way. I was just saying that if you work trading in with something like taking characters out for training that it doesn't seem like something you have to spend a lot of time on. But I do agree very much that the system could use some tweaking to make it better.
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sticky-runes
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby sticky-runes » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:09 am

But with Suikoden 2, it's only for when you want to make usable food items that you need to buy spices from trading posts. When doing the cooking contest, the spices are always available by default (odd...)
Slightly off-topic, but I hated how in Suikoden 3 food items have an expiry date before they go off and become poisonous. Now THAT is a bad use of realism in an RPG!!! It's like, why would you bother when you can use any type of medicine that never goes off?! But the money you gain from the restaurant selling food is a good idea, and I kind of wish trading was like that, so I can leave it to the merchants and come back and pick up our profits later.

And no, I wasn't offended by the burning through comment, that was just me ranting :oops:. I don't like rushing through games either (which is why i never bothered with Clive's quest) and I don't get why people want to rush an RPG. Particularly when I see people saying they wish they could skip cut scenes. I love cut scenes, and I only skip them if I'm playing a game that has a movie gallery :wink: But yeah, trading is one thing I can do without!

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EstrangedIX
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby EstrangedIX » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:25 am

Yeah the restaurant paying out was definitely something the others should've been doing all along. And if I remember correctly, I think Nadir pays as well with the payout depending on what play and cast are selected. Trading could work that way, like better payout the more rare items you have available. Having a treasurer to go to for payout would be good too.
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Antimatzist
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby Antimatzist » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:59 am

Yeah, I agree with this. This would go well with my idea of a trading-sim, you have to build a business and then it pays off. A real sidequest, that would just be cool.

Acutally, I think every shop should pay you. I think that would be a nice idea for a future game, your "army" starts as a small place where merchants gather and they pay you. I think Vinay del Zexen started like that!? And Suikoden III uses this idea, too, but you never see the money. That would be more realistic than gold-drops from monsters. I guess many people wouldn't like it, though.

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bluemask
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby bluemask » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:33 pm

Antimatzist wrote:Yeah, I agree with this. This would go well with my idea of a trading-sim, you have to build a business and then it pays off. A real sidequest, that would just be cool.

Acutally, I think every shop should pay you. I think that would be a nice idea for a future game, your "army" starts as a small place where merchants gather and they pay you. I think Vinay del Zexen started like that!? And Suikoden III uses this idea, too, but you never see the money. That would be more realistic than gold-drops from monsters. I guess many people wouldn't like it, though.


How about.... Your castle won't grow when you haven't reached a certain amount of money in your stash (well, army stash that is)! I like your idea and what if the profit doing side quest is the only way to upgrade your castle. Plus, it will limit your SoD recruitment too making players keep coming back for it. I would love it like that.

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sticky-runes
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby sticky-runes » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:46 pm

bluemask wrote:
How about.... Your castle won't grow when you haven't reached a certain amount of money in your stash (well, army stash that is)! I like your idea and what if the profit doing side quest is the only way to upgrade your castle. Plus, it will limit your SoD recruitment too making players keep coming back for it. I would love it like that.


I think the castle should grow bigger by default, but I kinda like the idea of using a stash to buy optional add-ons, like an art gallery, weapons display rooms, new furnishings for existing rooms, remodled baths, etc. So your castle starts off looking run-down, and then you buy ways to make it look nicer (kind of like how houses work in Skyrim)

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EstrangedIX
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Re: No more trading in suikoden games. EVER.

Postby EstrangedIX » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:02 pm

That's a cool idea. Like if a treasurer character (say, Sebastian if it were Budehuc) collected the payments from the shops & services and gave you the option to allocate whatever portion of funds to various upgrades. Having the ability to add spots for vases and paintings this way would be awesome.
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