Future Magic System

A place to post news and also give your ideas about the future of the Suikoden series.
Please justify all speculations with reasons why you think such an event could happen.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:03 pm

Simple. There is a fine line between customizability, tactical-orientedness, and balance. And you're right, those examples I shown are for an MMO.

Remember in the past Suikodens where the DB/DS/Fury/Crazed combo pretty much pwns the opposition and mages are pretty much useless end-game when you can deal damage better with physical attacks? Remember those times when fighters own the mages because they can use their skill runes unlimited times while mages can't do that with their magic runes?

In this "rigid" skill system, I'm trying to get rid of all that. I'm trying to make mages just as good as fighters and vice versa, with all their strengths and weaknesses of course. This avoids obvious choices which pretty much destroy any RPG. So everybody wants to become a fighter just because it's strong and nobody wants to be a mage since it sucks?

Those kind of choices end up making an MMO "a battle for the strongest equipment" instead of "a battle for the best tactics". Pretty much unfair for "casual" players, why? Since hardcore players can and are willing to spend more to get the strongest equipment, while "casual" players just play for fun and not for power, and "poor" players can't just afford strong equipment no matter how hard they try.

"Ridiculous penalties", as you say, are intended ONLY for balance. Most fighters can't even reach 100 MAG (which is required for a level 4 skill slot and a head rune slot) and thus can barely reach 60 MAG (required for a level 3 skill slot and a left hand rune slot), so a balancing system is necessary so that less magic-oriented fighters can do away with ultimate spells while more magic-oriented fighters will need that ultimate spell to keep up with more physical-oriented ones.

So, are we going back to the old system then where skill runes can be used unlimited times?
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Auragaea
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Auragaea » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:00 pm

I was talking about a magic system for a Suikoden game that isn't an MMO. I thought there was already a thread discussing ideas for a Suikoden MMO. Why not have this discussion there?
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:26 am

@ninjaluc: Why not using Tactics system and let fighters' MP be dependant on their Skill and not magic? Or maybe (Skill+Magic)/2 or something. Because Skill Runes should not depend on Magic Skills - at least most of them (Pixie e.g.).

You could still make these runes balanced without a rigid system like yours.

Remember those times when fighters own the mages because they can use their skill runes unlimited times while mages can't do that with their magic runes?

Suikoden V tried to balance it more and Skill Runes are either 1x only or unbalance you every time. But fighters are still way better than mages because of the messed up skill system.

I think a tactical/strategic magic system only makes sense, if the battle system becomes more demanding. I'd say: Less battles which last longer. Also, the Level-Up system should maybe be changed - not for a traditional way, but... something else. I think everything needs some work on it.

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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:27 pm

Antimatzist wrote:@ninjaluc: Why not using Tactics system and let fighters' MP be dependant on their Skill and not magic? Or maybe (Skill+Magic)/2 or something. Because Skill Runes should not depend on Magic Skills - at least most of them (Pixie e.g.).

You could still make these runes balanced without a rigid system like yours.

Remember those times when fighters own the mages because they can use their skill runes unlimited times while mages can't do that with their magic runes?

Suikoden V tried to balance it more and Skill Runes are either 1x only or unbalance you every time. But fighters are still way better than mages because of the messed up skill system.

I think a tactical/strategic magic system only makes sense, if the battle system becomes more demanding. I'd say: Less battles which last longer. Also, the Level-Up system should maybe be changed - not for a traditional way, but... something else. I think everything needs some work on it.


Which is what I'm trying to fix through a "rigid" system. Sure, we can make full-fledged fighters base their MP on their SKL stat, but what about Rune Knights such as Flik, Geddoe, and Kyle; or Rune Archers like Millie, Ted, and Zerase? It would suck if we want to make Rune Knights, Exorcists, and Rune Archers base their MP on SKL as they will normally never have a level 4 skill slot.
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Auragaea
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Auragaea » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:27 am

That's not a good enough reason for your type of system. There's a majority of ways for them to solve this "dilemma" such as having MP like other games and have it tied to character levels, having it based on (MAG+SKL)/2, having it based on the characters highest stat between the 2, etc, etc.
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby eldrasidar » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:21 am

I'm not sure what the major issue is. Without command or effect runes, mages most definitely overpower fighters late game. I think most of the issues are primarily those of tweaking little things here and there, so that you can prevent abuse of those runes. For example, just make all of the power-increasing runes like fury or double strike so that they can only be equipped to single slot like the head. The other thing you could do is make it so that effect runes don't stack with command runes. Those two things combined pretty much negate all the ways one could have of abusing physical rune combinations, while still keeping fighters on par with mages.

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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Auragaea » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:46 am

I actually agree a lot with you eldrasidar. Effect runes are definitely the main reason why physical attackers tend to be much stronger than mages late game. I think that by balancing those, as well as the effects of magic runes, we can have equality between physical attackers and mages. However, what having different abilities in a Skill rune adds to fighters is diversity. Mages can equip a myriad of runes and have something to do for all situations whereas fighters are pretty much limited to either attacking (which is not bad with the right runes, but definitely boring and only useful for single targets), using a Skill rune that probably causes unbalance and may be worse than just physically attacking, or casting a low level magic spell (which isn't necessarily bad for support runes like Water, Earth, and Wind but severely limits their battle prowess as they can't deal efficiently with groups or physical resistant enemies).
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:35 pm

Auragaea wrote:That's not a good enough reason for your type of system. There's a majority of ways for them to solve this "dilemma" such as having MP like other games and have it tied to character levels, having it based on (MAG+SKL)/2, having it based on the characters highest stat between the 2, etc, etc.


Hmmm, I find the system wherein MP is based on which between MAG and SKL is higher much better.

But how about... a system wherein if a character equips at least command rune, his MP is based on SKL.
If he equips at least one magic rune, his MP is based on MAG.
If he equips at least one effect rune (which I have excluded earlier), his MP will be 0/0/0/0, since you don't consume any MP from effect runes.

The hierarchy for MP basis selection is this, higher priority first:

Magic (MAG) -> Command -> (SKL) -> Effect (MP is 0/0/0/0)

If there is exactly one of type of rune equipped as above, i.e., a character has equipped all three, his MP will be based on MAG. Thus, his MP will neither be zero or based on SKL alone.

If a character equips Command Runes and/or Effect Runes but not Magic Runes, his MP will be based on SKL.

If a character equips only Effect Runes (i.e., no Command or Magic Runes), his MP will be zero.

Now, to prevent anyone from equipping Magic Runes just to obtain a level 4 MP slot for a Command Rune, given they have enough MAG to obtain this, the Command Runes shall be made similar to those in Suikoden Tactics wherein their skills are only up to level 3.
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Auragaea » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:51 pm

That seems unnecessarily complicated. Why not just divide characters into classes like in Tactics? Mages have their MP dependent on their MAG, Fighters on their SKL, and Warrior-mages on an average between their MAG and SKL.
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:15 pm

Which comes down to which classes should be Warrior-Mages.

I have a breakdown of the classes I have made up, here:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=5114&start=146

Special mentions here are the two types of Rune Knights and Ninjas:

- Rune Knight - Magic Sword Type (e.g. Snowe and Richard)
- Rune Knight - Caster Type (e.g. Flik and Geddoe)
- Ninja - Shrike Type (like most Suikoden ninjas, this is the physical type)
- Ninja - Ninpou/Scroll Type (I can't think of examples of Suiko characters like this one, though)
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Auragaea
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Auragaea » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:29 pm

Well, the devs would decide who would be a warrior-mage. Generally speaking, a character's stat would lean toward their specialty, so a rune knight's stats would lean toward a balance of all stats or toward STR and MAG.
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby gilgamesh31 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:18 am

Would'nt the two types of ninja be Shurikan: Kage, Fuma, Sasuke, Ayame, Kasumi (s1), Watari, Sagiri
and Claw types: Mondo, Shigure, Kasumi (s2), Mizuki, Akaghi? I know Akaghi uses a Chakram but its close enough...
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby eldrasidar » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:45 am

really there's just one type of ninja, the one with shrike. then there's a speedy character in ninja clothes they have a combo attack with.

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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:58 am

eldrasidar wrote:really there's just one type of ninja, the one with shrike. then there's a speedy character in ninja clothes they have a combo attack with.


Oh, I see then. I thought I have watched too much Naruto to think that there's such thing as a magic-type ninja in Suikoden. Major LOL.
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:56 am

What do you guys think about these spell sets? The first three spells of the lower-tier elemental magic runes should also be usable as scrolls.

*Wind
Wind of Sleep - Inflict Sleep to all foes
Healing Wind - Heals HP and adds HP Regen to one ally
The Shredding - Wind DMG and reduce PDF/MDF of all foes
Storm - Strong wind DMG to one foe

*Water
Kindness Drops - Heals HP to one ally
Breath of Ice - Water DMG and Freeze all foes
Kindness Rain - Heals HP to all allies
Silent Lake - Disable rune magic for 3 turns

*Earth
Clay Guardian - Increase PDF/MDF of one ally
Vengeful Child - Repel magic for one ally
Earthquake - Earth DMG to all foes on ground
Canopy Defense - Repel all-target magic once for all allies

*Cyclone
Healing Wind - Heals HP and adds HP Regen to one ally
The Shredding - Wind DMG and reduce PDF/MDF of all foes
Storm - Strong wind DMG to one foe
Shining Wind - Wind DMG to all foes, heals all allies

*Flowing
Breath of Ice - Water DMG and Freeze all foes
Kindness Rain - Heals HP to all allies
Silent Lake - Disable rune magic for 3 turns
Mother Ocean - Revives and fully heals one ally

*Mother Earth
Vengeful Child - Repel magic for one ally
Earthquake - Earth DMG to all foes on ground
Canopy Defense - Repel all-target magic once for all allies
Guardian Earth - Increase PDF/MDF of all allies

*Shield
Great Blessing - Heal HP to all allies
Shining Light - Holy DMG to all allies
Battle Oath - Inflict Berserk to all allies
Battlefield - Boost magic damage for 3 turns

*Rage Sword
Sword of Fire - Physical Fire DMG + Burn to one foe
Sword of Rage - Physical Fire DMG + Burn to all foes
Fire Force - Change weapon element to Fire, add MAG and Burn to ATK
Rage Force - STR up, Nullify Fire DMG for 3 turns

*Thunder Sword
Sword of Lightning - Physical Lightning DMG + Paralysis to one foe
Sword of Thunder - Physical Lightning DMG + Paralysis to all foes
Lightning Force - Change weapon element to Lightning, add MAG and Paralysis to ATK
Thunder Force - CRIT up, Nullify Lightning DMG for 3 turns

*Cyclone Sword
Sword of Wind - Physical Wind DMG + Sleep to one foe
Sword of Cyclone - Physical Wind DMG + Sleep to all foes
Wind Force - Change weapon element to Wind, add MAG and Sleep to ATK
Cyclone Force - EVA up, Nullify Wind DMG for 3 turns

*Flowing Sword
Sword of Ice - Physical Water DMG + Silence to one foe
Sword of Flowing - Physical Water DMG + Silence to all foes
Water Force - Change weapon element to Water, add MAG and Silence to ATK
Flowing Force - Add HP Regen, Nullify Water DMG for 3 turns

*Mother Earth Sword
Sword of Earth - Physical Earth DMG + Stun to one foe
Sword of Mother Earth - Physical Earth DMG + Stun to all foes
Earth Force - Change weapon element to Earth, add MAG and Stun to ATK
Mother Earth Force - DEF up, Nullify Earth DMG for 3 turns

*Resurrection Sword
Holy Sword - Physical Holy DMG + Blind to one foe
Sword of Resurrection - Physical Holy DMG + Blind to all foes
Holy Force - Change weapon element to Holy, add MAG and Blind to ATK
Resurrection Force - MDEF up, Nullify Holy DMG for 3 turns

*Darkness Sword
Sword of Death - Physical Earth DMG + Curse to one foe
Sword of Darkness - Physical Earth DMG + Curse to all foes
Death Force - Change weapon element to Dark, add MAG and Curse to ATK
Darkness Force - MAG up, Nullify Dark DMG for 3 turns

Burn - receive fire DMG per turn
Paralysis - receive lightning DMG per turn, HIT and EVA down
Sleep - receive x2 DMG, cannot move and evade attacks
Silence - cannot use rune magic
Stun - cannot move but can still evade attacks
Blind - HIT and EVA down
Curse - All Stats down
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