Future Magic System

A place to post news and also give your ideas about the future of the Suikoden series.
Please justify all speculations with reasons why you think such an event could happen.
Antimatzist
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Future Magic System

Postby Antimatzist » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:56 pm

Well, what would you prefer? Do you want the Rune System, mostly unchanged? Or something else, like the mark of the stars?

First, I must say tht I love the basics of the Rune system. It is unique, but after 6 installments using it... it has little new to offer. Yeah, there are new Runes and yeah, there are new spells, but most of the time, it is unchanged.

Tactics has improved it a bit by making Skill Runes like Falcon or Shrike essentially to magic runes - using MP, having different Levels. I think this is pretty cool.


Mark of the Stars... well, it isn't the worst idea, but in the long run, doesn't work. The thing that I liked the least was that characters you get late in the game don't evolve. You pick their 4 best spells right after you recruit them and never work with it again The first characters you'll get in the game on the other hand evolve, get new spells etc.

Also, spells get useless after a while. why would you use the weak spells if you can so much better use the better versions?


My idea for future magic systems would basically be an improves Rune system. Instead of 4 spells which are fixed and predetermined, you can maybe choose from a list of spells for each level. Or you can have the spells at different levels: You could maybe use Silent Lake as a Lvl 4 spell and silence all enemies, or as a Lvl 1 Spell and silence just one.

Also I'd wish that Skills affect the Spells more like you need at least Water Magic A to unlock the 4th spell of the Water Rune and Water Magic S to unlock Lvl 4 of the Flowing Rune.


Well, that are some quick ideas. I think the magic system of Suikoden is great, but I sometimes wish for some small experiments...

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EstrangedIX
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby EstrangedIX » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:06 pm

That sounds like a good idea. I've always hated how you end up losing a useful spell or two when upgrading runes. If I had the option to customize them I'd use them more than I do (I have a tendency to abuse my tanks way more than my mages). Although this does give me a reason to use scrolls, I hate wasting equipment slots for them.

I don't have a DS so I haven't played Tierkreis and don't have a clue how that system works. I do know, however, that I don't like how games like Final Fantasy handle magic, so I would never want Suikoden to have anything like that.
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby The Director » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:59 pm

I hated the Marks of the Stars, it just made the game less "Suikoden". Afterall the Runes are central to what Suikoden is. Also I do like the idea of customization but maybe restrain it to the Mages and the Paladins (half magician half warrior) to make the system unabusive (or at least less so). But I do feel the "skill" runes like shrike etc. shouldn't effect the MP, because they aren't usually magical just a special kind of attack mainly.

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EstrangedIX
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby EstrangedIX » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:13 pm

I always felt that the skill runes were just the game mechanic that controlled a specialized physical fighting skill, not actual magic runes. Using MP for these seems strange to me, but then, I haven't had the chance to play Tactics yet.
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:35 am

I think the only reason why that worked in Tactics was because Warriors couldn't use Magic Runes. Their MP also wasn't dependant on their Magic, but on their Skill.

It's just that some of these "Skill"-Runes are effective and some are just a waste. I'd like to balance this a bit more.

Maybe you could have as a minigame a Rune-Crafter, who you bring Rune Pieces and he can make new Runes for you. :D But that sounds definitely too complicated.

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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Flufflez » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:57 am

most of the games have either hidden or not so hidden affinities, along with armor classes, etc. one neat twist would be to add a talent/mastery system(i.e. a tree instead of skill ranks to provide unlockables and passive/non-passive bonuses). as far as how the gameplay of the runes could actually change, it depends on whether or not you want the combat to remain turn based. action combat or maybe having to aim your spells might make them more fun to use.

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Auragaea
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Auragaea » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:21 pm

I agree with Antimatzist about making skill runes have different abilities attached to it. It'd give physical attackers more options to do in battle than just simply attacking or letting loose 1 special ability. For those that are against skill runes using MP, they could have them consume HP instead, like the SMT series does. Some runes already do it, so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch for them to put it in (though they should make the cost percentage based instead of just a flat number).
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:58 am

Antimatzist wrote:I think the only reason why that worked in Tactics was because Warriors couldn't use Magic Runes. Their MP also wasn't dependant on their Magic, but on their Skill.

It's just that some of these "Skill"-Runes are effective and some are just a waste. I'd like to balance this a bit more.

Maybe you could have as a minigame a Rune-Crafter, who you bring Rune Pieces and he can make new Runes for you. :D But that sounds definitely too complicated.


Although Warriors can't use Magic Runes as effectively as Magicians, we could make the skill runes look like this:

Level 1 - physical damage to one enemy + rune special effects if any
Level 2 - physical damage to all enemies + rune special effects if any
Level 3 - high physical damage to one enemy + rune special effects if any
Level 4 - ultimate attack OR self-buffs + rune-specific penalty intended solely for balance.

For example, the Lion Rune (skill rune for Claw/Knuckle users) can have this skill set:

Level 1 - 1.5x damage to one enemy
Level 2 - 1.2x damage to all enemies
Level 3 - MAG - 25%, amount added to ATK, does not affect rune slots
Level 4 - consumes all MP to deal 3x damage to one enemy

Calculation for level 4 skill damage = (Attack - Defense) * (3 + Lv1 MP * 0.25 + Lv2 MP * 0.5 + Lv3 MP * 0.75 + Lv4 MP )
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:58 am

Note that I interchanged Lv3 and Lv4 with the Lion Rune example.

For the Unicorn Rune, the skill rune for Spear users:

Level 1 - 1.2x damage to one enemy, consumes 5% HP
Level 2 - 1x damage to one column, consumes 10% HP
Level 3 - 1.5x damage to one enemy, target takes 5% HP damage per turn, consumes 15% HP
Level 4 - ATK x 2, consumes 20% HP, user takes 5% HP damage per turn for 6 turns
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Auragaea
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Auragaea » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:31 pm

The effects for your skills are very interesting and well done. However, I think it'd be better if each Skill rune worked just like Magic runes, in that each has their own strength and weaknesses. Instead of them all following a similar formula, I think it'd be better if one Skill rune prioritized AoE attacks, another in debuffs, another in self-buffs, etc. It'd create more diversity IMO instead of all Skill runes having their Level 1 being single hit, Level 2 being AoE, and so forth.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:53 pm

Nonetheless, we need to give all skill runes at least one AoE skill or else it won't be attractive to try one particular rune just because it can't hit everybody. We also need to give all skill runes at least one Ultimate Skill or else it won't be attractive to try a particular skill rune just because it can't deal like 25-50% of an enemy's HP, be it PvE or in PvP.

As for the command runes that specialize in buffs, debuffs, and self-buffs, I think I'll reserve that for the "Class Runes", so called because one particular class can use it more effectively than the others, given that all classes can equip those runes.

We have for examples, *Knight, *Warrior, *Wizard, and the Elemental Sword Runes.

*Knight
Level 1 - Enables user to protect one ally from single-target physical attacks for 3 turns
Level 2 - STR - 25%, amount is added to ARM, lasts for 5 turns
Level 3 - Enables user to protect all allies from single-target physical attacks for 3 turns
Level 4 - MAG - 25%, amount is added to RES, lasts for 5 turns, does not affect rune slots

*Warrior
Level 1 - STR - 25%, amount is added to TECH, user attacks twice for the next 3 turns
Level 2 - ARM - 25%, amount is added to STR, lasts for 5 turns
Level 3 - TECH - 25%, amount is added to STR, lasts for 3 turns
Level 4 - MAG - 25%, 4 times that amount is added to STR, does not affect rune slots, lasts for 5 turns

*Wizard
Level 1 - MAG - 25%, amount is added to TECH, user casts spell first in the next 3 turns
Level 2 - RES - 25%, amount is added to MAG, does not affect rune slots, lasts for 5 turns
Level 3 - TECH - 25%, amount is added to MAG, user casts spell last in the next 3 turns, does not affect rune slots
Level 4 - STR - 25%, 4 times that amount is added to MAG, does not affect rune slots, lasts for 5 turns

*Rage Sword
Level 1 - 1.5x elemental damage to one enemy + Burn (30%)
Level 2 - 1.2x elemental damage to one row + Burn (25%)
Level 3 - ATK + MAG x 2, enchant weapon with (element) property, STR + 20
Level 4 - User takes 0.5x damage from Fire-element attacks and 2x damage from Water-element attacks
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Antimatzist » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:59 am

Nonetheless, we need to give all skill runes at least one AoE skill or else it won't be attractive to try one particular rune just because it can't hit everybody. We also need to give all skill runes at least one Ultimate Skill or else it won't be attractive to try a particular skill rune just because it can't deal like 25-50% of an enemy's HP, be it PvE or in PvP.

I don't really agree. Why does every Skill Rune need one AoE (I guess it means attacking all enemies?) attack? Some SKills Runes are better in hitting a lot of foes and some are better hitting onle one foe.

I agree on the "ultimate attack", but it could be something else for every Rune.
For the other runes you've mentioned: I've fought about that and don't really know. I think they should work like they do now, with passive bonus you don't need to activate in battle. But maybe they become better with skills/higher levels or something like this.

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ninjaluc79
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby ninjaluc79 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:44 am

How about this:

If a Skill Rune specializes in single-target attacks, let's give it one AoE attack, preferably at its Level 2 slot.
If a Skill Rune specializes in multi-target attacks, the single-target attack can pretty much be placed in any level slot.
But of course, the level 4 skill of those runes consist of either mega-self-buffs with their corresponding penalties for the sake of balance (as in the case of *Unicorn above), or an ultimate attack (as in the case of Lion).

I am actually trying to make up a stats system and a skills system, both of which I will test later through a game I'm creating. I'm not sure when I could finish it, but I would gladly let you test my game if I could.
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Antimatzist » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:40 am

Yeah, sure!

This whole topic is about speculation, so the more ideas we gather here the better. In the end, I guess none of these games will ever be in a Suikoden-game, hehe.

But you mentioned one important type of Runes: The Elemental Swords.

In Tactics, they were sooo important, but in the other games, I never bothered using them. But I think with ideas like yours they could be made a lot more interesting!

But generally, I wish that the battle system of Suikoden will become a bit more tactical. Imo only the battles in the beginning are really challenging, but later on, you don't really need a strategy. Witht hat, also Runes with strategic purposes aren't really used too often, e.g. most of the spells of the Earth Rune

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Auragaea
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Re: Future Magic System

Postby Auragaea » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:04 am

I don't get it. I thought this was speculation about runes in a future Suikoden game? The way you're saying it, ninjaluc, it seems as though you're speculating about an MMO. In any case, I don't believe that a rune that specializes in AoE or single target damage should HAVE a single target skill or AoE skill, respectively, especially in that rigid order you've created for them. It's a much better idea than your previous one, but I still don't like how rigid it is. For certain parts of the game I could see how having one or the other type of attack effects could be beneficial, but if you have a party of 6, you should definitely be able to create one that has characters who specialize in either single target attacks, AoE attacks, both, buffs, debuffs, and so forth.

Basically, I'm just not fond of the rigid way you're assigning the skills to. Why can't a single target skill rune have a Level 4 AoE rune? Why must it be level 2? Why must a Level 4 rune provide self-buffs to the user and have ridiculous penalties? You've pretty much created a system for how you want things to fall into place, which isn't a bad thing, but severely limits the individuality of each rune. The way I think we should be looking at it is to determine what each rune does and create skills for it instead of just bending the rune to fall into a rigid system.
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