The series will (probably) end eventually. When should it?

A place to post news and also give your ideas about the future of the Suikoden series.
Please justify all speculations with reasons why you think such an event could happen.
Ness the Mess
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:22 am

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Ness the Mess » Wed May 11, 2011 8:46 am

It seems to me people are assuming there is some great difficulty in "keeping track" of the events of the series. However, most (all) companies keep a database similar to Wikipedia regarding their long-going series (FF and DQ don't need one because they're all one-shots).

I think it would be a shame to ever "end the series." Considering there is a large amount of time to cover in the main universe there are more or less infinite stories to tell, and they don't all have to be connected. When one is only keeping track of geography there are fewer conflicts to worry about, especially with borders and countries moving over time.

Regardless, Konami doesn't have a whole lot of RPG series to work with, so even if Suikoden goes on hiatus for a generation, they will inevitably come back to it. It's the bread and butter of J-gaming.

R_C_Cola2001
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:40 pm
Location: Mount Clemens
Contact:

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby R_C_Cola2001 » Wed May 11, 2011 6:59 pm

I have to agree that there need be no end to the series. However, I think keeping the timeline and geography intact is important. Its what makes this series unique. Even after the series is "completed" (meaning all 27 runes have been shown), it is easily possible to step the storyline up by 500 - 1000 years, and start over again.

As for mechanics, I agree that the difficulty of the Suikoden series needs to be revamped. Also, the graphics could use some tweaking. However, I would hate to see either the combat or the graphics go the route of the Final Fantasy series. I started playing that series when the beta was launched in NY and cali. A friend brought it back from his cousins to Detroit, and we fell in love (You got to play up to the fight with Lich, if memory serves). I also remember playing religiously until 7 came out. Everyone fell for that graphical copout with its overdone materia system, and after being disappointed by 8, 9 and 10, I refuse to even try the rest. I seriously hope that Konami doesn't sell out this series the way Square sold out to mass market. Konami makes enough cash off of its other games.

Flufflez
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:44 am

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Flufflez » Thu May 12, 2011 12:48 am

although the series could probably go on forever, i think it would be more appropriate for it to develop only to a certain point. unveil all the runes, uncover all the mysteries, etc. once everything as been exposed and some sort of conclusion has been drawn, you go into spinoffs, remakes, etc. you can only do so much with a series though, and part of what makes the game so great are the characters, particularly the reoccurring ones. the further away from s1/s2 characters we get, the more i'm going to dislike the game, plain and simple, especially if there is no mention of true rune holders.

think about it like this. why do you love suikoden 1? unique concept, compelling characters/story. why do you love suikoden 2? it is basically suikoden 1 on steroids. it has everything you love from the original game but better. it has a lot of the characters you want to know about. it also has the unfair advantage of being a sequel to a game you didn't necessarily know was going to have a sequel when you finished it. why do you hate suikoden 4 (or like it the least)? because it's 150 years in the past. practically zero reoccurring characters, they changed a lot of the things that made the game unique (4 stars in combat instead of 6 suddenly?).

for me they should stick with the 5,1,2,3 time period, fix up some of the sloppy stuff from 3, and bring the game back to an exciting conclusion with the original characters and game concepts.

Ness the Mess
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:22 am

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Ness the Mess » Thu May 12, 2011 3:53 pm

You're making far too many assumptions. Why did I dislike 4? Because of poor loading times, lack of direction, and insufficient time spent on Snowe.

You assume that I and all other fans enjoy Suikoden because we're trying to "catch em all" for all 27 true runes. I personally don't care. A true rune holder can be killed, and the rune can pass on. Thus there will never be a full set of true rune holders; it is liable to shift at any time.

Whats interesting about the game to me is not just the recurring characters nor the immortal ones, but rather the mature approach towards conflicts; IE in Suikoden III when everyone was wrong and everyone was right. This Japanese approach to morality is very compelling to me; it's very post-modern and intriguing.

While it is true that continuity is important, Suikoden XNVII doesn't have to have the same characters as Suikoden II. However, it has to be in the same world, have the same history, have 108 stars, and be related to one or some of the true runes.

I don't think anything apart from an Apocalypse could happen in a Suikoden game to make me think the series had ended (and even then; 108 Zombies of Destiny? -_-). Heck, they could give me a walking tour of Harmonia ending in a Hall of the 27 true rune holders and I would still say "So? What if the true rune holders had infighting, or were assassinated, or Harmonia itself collapsed?" Such is the setting of Suikoden. Conflicts will always occur, and the 108 SoD will always rise up to meet them. This is Suikoden's call, Suikoden's strength, and Suikoden's majesty.

Antimatzist
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:48 am
Location: Germany, yeah baby
Contact:

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Antimatzist » Thu May 12, 2011 6:45 pm

I agree with Ness. The two things that fascinate me most about Suikoden is the big universe (of course this includes recurring characters, but not only) and the fascinating approach about conflicts. Most of the time, the "evil" you are fighting is doing, from their point, the right thing and if you'd switch sides you'd say that the other people are "wrong".

That's the main reason I don't like Tierkreis - it had neither of both. And it didn't even bother expanding its universe: countries existed of two cities at most and the evil was just plain evil. That's normal for RPGs, but not for the Suikoden-series...

btt: So I wouldn't mind if the series would go on longer, but the quality of the games shouldn't fade away. I would even like to see e.g. The Toran Republic in 60 years and see if it would be as corrupted as the SME over time.

LanceHeart
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby LanceHeart » Fri May 13, 2011 4:41 am

Ness the Mess wrote:It seems to me people are assuming there is some great difficulty in "keeping track" of the events of the series. However, most (all) companies keep a database similar to Wikipedia regarding their long-going series (FF and DQ don't need one because they're all one-shots).

Sure you can track an entire universe in a huge Wiki like what Suikosource and Gensopedia have managed to do. However, for someone who's completely new to the universe and needs to create a new storyline, you actually need to immerse yourself in that knowledge and either know it like the back of your hand or lose immense amounts of time in cross-referencing everything you write against the ever-growing database. The weak point isn't how you track it, but rather who's tracking it.

That's kind of why such writing ends up being a humongous waste of time and salary when you can just create a new world and get similar sales results (Tierkreis).
Formerly known as: Gothann

Ness the Mess
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:22 am

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Ness the Mess » Fri May 13, 2011 9:17 am

Let me give you an example, then.

The Star Wars series has 6 movies and 1 (soon 2) full tv series of hard cannon. Then there are thousands of books, comic books, and video games which are "soft" cannon (they're cannon until Lucas proves otherwise). All that being said it's still only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. Lucas has thousands of pages of notes on the series, and more in his head, which are unused as of yet.

Though the Grandfather of Suikoden is no longer with Konami, it still has caretakers who have been there since the beginning (more or less). Compare likewise with Zelda; Miyamoto is the grandfather of the series, but Aonuma is its caretaker for 10 years now. And regardless of who's in charge, there's more unreleased about the universe than there is released.

Compare also to the late Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series or the Middle Earth based books of Tolkien. Each has a cast of over a thousand characters, has history of thousands of years to deal with, and yet both are massively open to explore and have current experts (for Jordan one of which is finishing the series for him post mortem, officially, with his widow and publisher).

I don't see any of these series having issues with cannon, nor with them ever having an end (regardless of the enlightened beings leaving middle earth in Tolkien, it has loads of backstory to go through - likewise with Jordan, even if the current Dragon Reborn should kill everyone and himself, the wheel turns, and with it a new age ...).

I just think it's kind of a cop-out to say "its too hard." Konami might do that because they aren't known for polish (all the suikoden games are fantastic, but all are missing the kind of polish that other companies put into their big titles). Tierkreis had sales numbers, sure, but so did every game for the DS; is Catz a success because it has sales numbers? Gosh, I hope not.

TenkaiStar108
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 12:13 pm
Contact:

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby TenkaiStar108 » Fri May 13, 2011 7:28 pm

It would be a sad day when the Suikoden series ends :c I'm really hoping they finish up Yuber and Pesmerga's story, since I heard the creator said that there was more to it. I hope that the next game (if there will be one!) will have their end in it.

User avatar
Auragaea
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:26 am

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Auragaea » Sat May 14, 2011 6:50 am

I'd never want the Suikoden series to end, but if it did, it'd have to answer these questions/address these points:

- Reveal the secret of the oldies (Jeane, Raura, Simeon, etc) as well as Viki
- Address the issue of Hikusaak and his real intentions
- Tell us the mystery behind the Sindar
- Reveal all 27 True Runes
- Talk about the Nameless Lands (we don't necessarily have to play there, but I do want to know the names of the countries, their culture, etc.)
- End Pesmerga and Yuber's story (Frankly I don't care a fig about these 2, but for the series to end it apparently has to involve these two)
Hmm... Didn't make much money. Next time, let's get rich! - Rachel

LanceHeart
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby LanceHeart » Sat May 14, 2011 4:58 pm

Ness the Mess wrote:I just think it's kind of a cop-out to say "its too hard." Konami might do that because they aren't known for polish (all the suikoden games are fantastic, but all are missing the kind of polish that other companies put into their big titles). Tierkreis had sales numbers, sure, but so did every game for the DS; is Catz a success because it has sales numbers? Gosh, I hope not.

You're assuming Konami cares about and actually has people who are actively designated as caretakers of the franchise anymore, or that their expertise matters to Konami's brass. Interviews from back in the Tierkreis pre-launch days seem to indicate that the latter wasn't true in 2008. Tierkreis would have been very different and not considered a major franchise release if it actually were true.
Let's not forget that Suikoden isn't a million-seller franchise like the ones you've mentioned. Star Wars, Middle Earth, and Zelda turned into franchises with such large support that it's actually worth it to invest in their respective universe's cohesion.

As for "it's too hard", that's not what I actually said. The quote should have been "it's not worth it" or "it's too costly". With time and resources, Suikoden could definitely become even more complex than any fictional universe out there right now. The problem is how the series doesn't have the sales to back up the effort. The lack of polish you mention actually comes from that. My own post on the matter is a rather fanboyish dream of Konami finishing the franchise with a bang rather than a protracted, halfhearted death. The fan in me wants the former, but every single franchise I've seen sink into oblivion resulted in the latter.

As for Catz (rather, the Petz franchise in general): The sheer amount of games and commercial success it had for an entire handheld generation definitely makes it a success. Not for its writing nor for its innovation, but for Ubisoft's ability to access a whole new gamer demographic.
Formerly known as: Gothann

Ness the Mess
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:22 am

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Ness the Mess » Sun May 15, 2011 5:24 pm

LanceHeart wrote: The problem is how the series doesn't have the sales to back up the effort. The lack of polish you mention actually comes from that.


I disagree. The reason it doesn't have sales is there isn't polish, not the other way around. If Suiko 1 and 2 had had sales numbers then you might have had a point, but Suiko 2 had a limited print run due to poor sales. People bought these first games and simply weren't wow'd by them (or didn't buy them because of FF7). Obviously I did enjoy them, and their successors, but most people need more than an interesting story and characters to get into something. Perhaps in the NES/SNES days this was not so true, but by the '95 generation era people were starting to care more about gameplay and graphics. Something that could be made in RPG maker 95 wasn't very interesting to the masses at that point.

Now take this paragraph with a grain of salt; I'm not an idiot and I don't think money grows on trees. However, what suikoden really needs is a massive influx of money on two levels. First on the production value of the game (such as cinematics that are actually "pretty"), and secondly on advertising. Most companies spend a chunk of money on one or the other, but the succesful games have both. Again, to footnote this paragraph, I'm not stupid enough to think that Konami wants to risk the money on this - but at the same time, I think it would open up the franchise to a lot of new people.

LanceHeart
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby LanceHeart » Sun May 15, 2011 6:23 pm

Interestingly, your argument that Suikoden didn't have good sales because it didn't have polish isn't factually true. Vextor found the Famitsu first-run numbers for Suikoden 2 through 5 and they're as follows: (source being http://www.suikox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27494)

Suikoden 2: 344,184 units sold
Suikoden 3: 377,729 units sold
Suikoden 4: 311,815 units sold
Suikoden 5: 192,297 units sold


The rest of the thread goes into showing off more sales numbers and the most alarming drop in total per-title sales for the main series was actually post-Suikoden 4. Suikoden 5 got just short of 200K for a full PS2 investment while Suikoden Tierkreis got a similar number for a DS investment.

So in short, this is one of the many reasons I think Konami won't ever support Suikoden in the same way they used to. By making an above average DS game that shunned the universe and simplified the gameplay they only matched title sales of a moderately polished in-universe PS2 game. The series didn't grow and that probably killed most motivation in any large investment.

As a fan I'd love for them to push one last expensive, open-ended hurrah in hopes of closing off most storylines while creating a few new sequel-worthy plot openings, just in case the game miraculously sells very well. The reality of this is going to be very different, though. Konami didn't even have enough preorders to warrant producing the franchise-spanning OST collection and I don't think I've seen them grant a license for any merchandise of note since Tierkreis beyond the poorly-received Pachislot game.
Formerly known as: Gothann

Antimatzist
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:48 am
Location: Germany, yeah baby
Contact:

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Antimatzist » Mon May 16, 2011 4:43 am

LanceHeart wrote: The reality of this is going to be very different, though. Konami didn't even have enough preorders to warrant producing the franchise-spanning OST collection and I don't think I've seen them grant a license for any merchandise of note since Tierkreis beyond the poorly-received Pachislot game.

The Suikoden I and II mangas are still running, aren't they?

About the OST: I don't know if that really is a sign for a dead series. About 300$ (or what was it?) is a huge investment and it's not worth for most players I guess. Also you can't buy it as non-Japanese, so the barrier is even higher.

Flufflez
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:44 am

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Flufflez » Mon May 16, 2011 12:53 pm

consider that cds today are more like collector's items than anything else. if you want to listen to suikoden music, go to grooveshark and type in suikoden and there you have all the osts at your disposal.

Son_of_Genkaku
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:17 am

Re: The series will (probably) end eventually. When should i

Postby Son_of_Genkaku » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:22 am

If we could only have one more main game in the series (and hopefully we're still getting at least 1), I would want it to take place at least half the time in Harmonia, and set sometime from the end of the Dunan Unification War to a decade or so after the Second Fire Bringer War. It could touch briefly on the Harmonia/Dunan Republic conflict and perhaps focus the main plot on an internal Harmonian rebellion. Or it could just take place entirely in Kanakan and involve wine or something. One of those two.


Return to “Future Suikoden News and Speculation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests