Are Suikoden fans THE problem?

[Novelist_Games]

In order to be completely clear, I'd like to state that I'm a passionate Suikoden fan myself, however, the subject of this post is something that I've often thought about ever since completing Suikoden Tierkreis when it was released, after recently replaying Suikoden IV and also reading the very recent announcement of the Suikoden IV Pachinko Pachislot machine.

Suikoden IV generally isn't a favourable entry in the series and often recieves criticism or plain old scorn from fans of the series or otherwise. Likewise, Suikoden Tierkreis certainly wasn't what anyone wanted in a sequel to the series, let alone what people actually expected. This was due to it's nature and some of the series "staples" being removed in order to make it more accessible for a wider and---dare I say it---"casual" audience. With the announcement of the Suikoden IV Pachinko Pachislot machine, fans have already negatively questioned its existence, especially Western ones but, as Vextor has also said in the relevant post, the Japanese themselves have already been critical of it, too.

As a few others have commented, you can, of course, still remain passionate about a series yet dislike certain entries in it, either in part or as a whole. However, are Suikoden fans TOO critical and simply negatively so? Is the series hindered because of their hard to please nature and strict expectations of what they want from it?

Suikoden Tierkreis is, by far, one of the best, if not the best, traditional JRPG on the Nintendo DS, let alone an actually excellent entry in the Suikoden "series". Yet who out of you here actually bought it? I'm honestly not being judgemental but my point is that almost only a fraction of Suikoden fans actually bought it when comparing its sales numbers to other entries in the series. Whether or not we can read and see media, previews and reviews before hand, it's not very supportive, is it? Would we be hearing news on a sequel to the series sooner if there'd been more support for Suikoden Tierkreis in terms of both sales and positively CONSTRUCTIVE criticism from the series' fans?

Lastly, other franchises recieve a lot of united support from fans. Suikosource is, obviously, an excellent website and has successfully been keeping the series' flame burning for many years. However, I wish, as a fan, that there was more I could actively DO. For example, fans of the television series Firefly have Brown Coat Day, on which fans of the series will purchase the series and merchandise to support it. Also, there are games in the series that have STILL not been brought to other shores outside of Japan. Collectively acting on this (yes with petitions and the like) might actually help to spread the series' awareness, etc?

I'm sorry that this has seemed a bit like a ramble but I'm very interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

[Raww Le Klueze]

Suikoden Tierkreis is, by far, one of the best, if not the best, traditional JRPG on the Nintendo DS, let alone an actually excellent entry in the Suikoden "series".

No.

Yet who out of you here actually bought it?

Why would I buy crap I don't want and give Konami the idea I actually want more of it?

my point is that almost only a fraction of Suikoden fans actually bought it when comparing its sales numbers to other entries in the series.

Imagine that. Fans of the series didn't support the game that had nothing to do with the series other than leeching off it's name for some peculiar reason. Shocker.

Would we be hearing news on a sequel to the series sooner if there'd been more support for Suikoden Tierkreis

No, we would have seen a Tierkreis 2 which is not what I want. Supporting Tierkreis would have one effect and one effect only: giving Konami irrefutable evidence that they can make a bigger profit by blowing the original series off and make them concentrate on Tierkreis.

If being a fan means I have to blindly buy into anything with the name genso suikoden attached rather than the games that actually interest me then count me as a non-fan.

That's like saying you can't be a Final Fantasy fan if you don't buy Final Fantasy XIV, even if you don't even like MMORPG's, despite it by most standards being a horrid game.

and positively CONSTRUCTIVE criticism from the series' fans?

And this criticism was supposed to reach Konami how?

[Novelist_Games]

Wow, I don't actually know where to begin but, without being rude, your reaction is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. In fact, it's, unfortunately, an excellent example. Well, you're certaintly entitled to your opinion.

To reply to your points (but not argumentatively so):

1) In my opinion, Suikoden Tierkreis was an excellent JRPG on the Nintendo DS. Yes, the DS has a lot of JRPGs but not so many traditional ones. Tierkreis provided players with hours of gameplay, an intriguing storyline, excellent quality design and production (despite voice localisation issues) and most of the excellent Suikoden series gameplay. If you were to name same other DS traditional JRPGs that you think are better, I'd be happy to discuss it.

Also, yes, I DO think that Tierkreis IS a great entry in the series. Although it is not DIRECTLY related to the existing series and has some staples missing, it still consisted of what I believe to be important Suikoden characteristics, such as fantastically varied and presented cultures, explorative and cultural locations, the extremely evoking score of those cultures, the true feeling of a threat against your gathering stars, etc.

2) "Why would you buy crap?" So I take it you obviously didn't buy it. If you did, then I'm wrong but it certainly sounds like you didn't. Even if you "tried it", you can't openly judge or criticise it correctly without having played through it fully. Like I said, regardless of media, perhaps you should have given it a chance yourself, your support in simply playing it fully? At least then, afterwards, you could judge it and provide Konami with positive constructive criticism on what you thought.

3) My counter-point here is similar to that made in point 1; simply because Tierkreis did not have anything that directly connected it to the other entries, doesn't mean that it's NOT a Suikoden game. As said, I personally think it's more of a Suikoden game in a LOT of ways compared to some of the others that are directly linked.

4) Of course I can understand that if Konami would have recieved support for Tierkreis that we might be seeing a sequel to that but you're completely missing the point. The development team stressed that they developed Tierkreis to introduce new players to the series. Suikoden IV may have sold roughly the same units at III but the figures for V dropped from IV. The PS2 titles in the series have also failed to sell over the 500, 000 mark, too. Without sales, without introducing new players, the series WILL die off, as Konami will no longer have the support to justify making another entry in the "real" series.

Also, I already said that you don't have to blindly buy or love every game in a series to be a fan BUT not buying Tierkreis AT ALL is not giving your support to the series for the reasons stated above. With your example of FFXIV I do believe it's a different comparison, and not because it doesn't support my point; an MMO is essentially a totally different TYPE of game to a JRPG. Suikoden Tierkreis ISNT any different to the other entries, it just has some gameplay missing and a different plot.

5) Game companies read through forums ALL OF THE TIME. How else do you think they acquire player feedback? There aren't that many Suikoden websites anymore and Suikosource is certainly one of the most promiment. I work for a games company, trust me, player feedback, especially through forums now, is a primary source of feedback for developers.

Again, a long post, but I guess fans such as yourself is who I'm talking/appealing to here.

[Nikisaur]

Well, my opinion is no, fans are not the problem. I think it's a fan's job to provide accurate feedback on what they thought. The game is for them, right? I can't find a fault in honestly expressing your opinion on a game. To point out what you liked, or didn't like about a game is integral to making the next one better.

And on the whole, buying the game to support it thing... Some of us don't have money to sling around buying any game we like. Second hand games are a good option for some of us. EVERY copy of Suikoden that I own (apart from maybe tactics) was bought second hand. This is due to limited or no copies available in stores (Tierkreis and 3 weren't released here). Actually I originally bought 5 from a store but someone lost it and I had to go second hand. So am I not supporting the series?

And on Tierkreis: Every Suikoden game I have played has kept me entertained. I admit that Suikoden 4 wasn't as good as some of the others, in my opinion, but I still played it through and enjoyed it. I appreciated it much more after playing Tactics aswell. But with Tierkreis, I got bored. Among other things, I didn't find the plot, nor the characters very engaging. I sure as hell don't want to see another one. I don't want Suikoden to go from one of the best RPG series ever to 'good for a DS rpg'. I want those conventions, characters, plotlines and all that from the main series that I love and grew up with. And I'm sure as hell going express that opinion. Strongly.

[Raww Le Klueze]

1. It doesn't have "some staples missing" it has nothing in common with it. It's as much a Suikoden game as Koei's games also based on Shui Hui Zhan. You need more than 108 mindnumbingly boring characters and a nonsensical story to sell me the concept.

2. I played the game. I was just smart about it. Excuses of the "If you didn't play it..." ilk hold no water. I played the Japanese version, thought it was utter crap, played the english version to confirm, thought it was even worse crap with it's atrocious voice acting.

How did I do that without paying? Mystery. I did get the Japanese version, but I had the forsight of getting it second-hand since everything about it screamed crap so I wouldn't support it financially. I hate the game enough that I'd give away the Japanese copy I unfortunatly do have except I'm not sure there's anyone I hate enough to subject them to it.

3. It's not a Suikoden in anything but name.

4. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If the future of the series is more Tierkreis then let it die off with dignity instead and pretend it ended on a high-note with V.

I'm not the least bit concerned about VI's release. I'm only concerned over how much influence Tierkreis will have over it and ruin it.

Yeah, Tierkreis was meant to lure new fans into the series. Why should the existing fans bother with it? It wasn't made for them. Either way, it failed miserably in that regard so all the more reason to bury it.

5. You might want to take off the rose-tinted glasses. KCET doesn't give a damn about anything said here. They get their feedback via letters from the Japanese fanbase, not here. The only contact that they ever had with this site was when they asked us for 20 questions to ask the team and ended up ignoring half of them and non-answering the rest with "We think Tierkreis is great!".

[Novelist_Games]

Well, my opinion is no, fans are not the problem. I think it's a fan's job to provide accurate feedback on what they thought. The game is for them, right? I can't find a fault in honestly expressing your opinion on a game. To point out what you liked, or didn't like about a game is integral to making the next one better.

And on the whole, buying the game to support it thing... Some of us don't have money to sling around buying any game we like. Second hand games are a good option for some of us. EVERY copy of Suikoden that I own (apart from maybe tactics) was bought second hand. This is due to limited or no copies available in stores (Tierkreis and 3 weren't released here). Actually I originally bought 5 from a store but someone lost it and I had to go second hand. So am I not supporting the series?

And on Tierkreis: Every Suikoden game I have played has kept me entertained. I admit that Suikoden 4 wasn't as good as some of the others, in my opinion, but I still played it through and enjoyed it. I appreciated it much more after playing Tactics aswell. But with Tierkreis, I got bored. Among other things, I didn't find the plot, nor the characters very engaging. I sure as hell don't want to see another one. I don't want Suikoden to go from one of the best RPG series ever to 'good for a DS rpg'. I want those conventions, characters, plotlines and all that from the main series that I love and grew up with. And I'm sure as hell going express that opinion. Strongly.

It's good to hear your opinion that fans aren't the problem. Any view is good if it furthers discussion. You misunderstand me, though, I whole heartedly agree that everyone has the right to voice their opinion, ESPECIALLY if you're a fan of something. It's the way in which people go about it that I have a "problem" with; simply saying something is "crap" without actually discussing WHY. That's what constructive criticism is (not that I'm patronising), to actually analyze and discuss rather than simply disregard.

You're also right when it comes to purchasing any game in the Suikoden series, especially now, as a lot of them are out of print and most certainly hard to find in stores new. There's definitely also the issue of being able to buy second hand games cheaper due to a lack of money, as I myself have bought many a second hand game---we're not all millionaires But please, honestly, don't think that I'm "attacking" anyone and going on some sort of witch hunt to see who is truly a fan or not. That's not the purpose of my post. It's to analyze the situation, discuss it and see, if we can, if there's a way to improve it. Supporting simply isn't buying directly, as buying the games, playing them and sharing your passion for them is great support in and of itself so maybe those who can afford to buy them brand new will.

It's a shame that you didn't enjoy Tierkreis either. You're definitely entitled to your opinion of it, so there's no need to strongly defend it. But perhaps, like Tactics/Rhapsodia, another play through might change your opinion of it a little, just a thought?

1. It doesn't have "some staples missing" it has nothing in common with it. It's as much a Suikoden game as Koei's games also based on Shui Hui Zhan. You need more than 108 mindnumbingly boring characters and a nonsensical story to sell me the concept.

2. I played the game. I was just smart about it. Excuses of the "If you didn't play it..." ilk hold no water. I played the Japanese version, thought it was utter crap, played the english version to confirm, thought it was even worse crap with it's atrocious voice acting.

How did I do that without paying? Mystery. I did get the Japanese version, but I had the forsight of getting it second-hand since everything about it screamed crap so I wouldn't support it financially. I hate the game enough that I'd give away the Japanese copy I unfortunatly do have.

3. It's not a Suikoden in anything but name.

4. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If the future of the series is more Tierkreis then let it die off with dignity instead and pretend it ended on a high-note with V.

I'm not the least bit concerned about VI's release. I'm only concerned over how much influence Tierkreis will have over it and ruin it.

Yeah, Tierkreis was meant to lure new fans into the series. Why should the existing fans bother with it? It wasn't made for them. Either way, it failed miserably in that regard so all the more reason to bury it.

5. You might want to take off the rose-tinted glasses. KCET doesn't give a damn about anything said here. They get their feedback via letters from the Japanese fanbase, not here. The only contact that they ever had with this site was when they asked us for 20 questions to ask the team and ended up ignoring half of them and non-answering the rest with "We think Tierkreis is great!".

I think you're missing some points again. Yes, there are a lot of games based on Shui Hui Zhan but none others are represented like the Suikoden series is. Just because Tierkreis doesn't have similar characters, settings or continuing stories from the others, is still no basis to claim it isn't a Suikoden game.

And of course "if you didnt play it arguments" "hold water"! If you havent played a game, how on earth can you critique it?! So, you did play it and yes, you didn't like it and yes, again, you're most certainly entitled to that opinion. Again, I'm not on a witch hunt.

And it's not a case of the future for the series simply being Tierkries. Gamers are so stagnant in their views. If it's not exactly what they want, they want nothing of it and see no future for it. Why can't Tierkreis exist ALONGSIDE the main storyline? Simply put, if Tierkreis did well, sold copies and sequels were produced, which sold more copies that then went on to fund a full console "true sequel" why would that be a bad thing?

I'm not wearing rose tinted glasses. Perhaps I might have been unaware that Konami specifically hasn't listened much to the fans on here but are you surprised? Again, it's EDITED: NOT a case of everyone on here saying "oh Konami we loved Tierkreis soooooooooooo much, it's the best thing eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever" but positive criticism would maybe be more effective apart from constantly whining we don't have a "true sequel". There were things I did "dislike" about Tierkreis, too, but it doesn't mean I'm going to utterly hate it entirely.

[Vextor]

I remember the same topic being brought up in the past, but having been involved in other fandoms as well, I don't see Suikoden fans as being any different from fans of other series. In fact, Raww for example has had a very positive effect on the series as a whole, as the localization staff for Suikoden V specifically mentioned how they were extra careful to make sure they avoid ending up on Raww's site. Thus, it seems like critique is welcomed by those involved in the production of the series.

However, one peculiarity when dealing with Konami is how they are extremely hesitant towards having direct contact with fans. Konami is well known for having the most draconian and byzantine fansite policies out there, and have sued fans for using what they considered improper use of official artwork. This has obviously resulted in less fansites-- meaning less fans overall, especially for their "less marketable" francises.

Konami tends to give more creative freedom to lucrative franchises, such as MGS and whatnot, and the creators for those series can pretty much do whatever they want. Meanwhile, for lesser franchises such as Suikoden, staff gets switched around based on corporate needs and thus there's a considerable lack of continuity within the "suikoden team" itself. Even within the team, they are not allowed to communicate with fans directly.

Once when I basically charged into Konami and spoke with Fumi Ishikawa to deliver a petition, she said she wasn't allowed to speak with fans directly (although we did chat for about 30 minutes). The whole secrecy baffeled me, when it would obviously invigorate fans if they can have some sort of communication with the creators themselves.

My experience with other developers, such as Nipponichi Software, have been a lot more friendly and less "corporate." Extreme cases are developers who actually include fans within their development team, such as how CCP Games runs Eve Online. In such cases communication between fans and the developers is pretty direct.

In the case of Konami, in the 10 years I've run suikoden-related sites, I've been contacted by them once, and that was when they wanted help marketing Tierkreis. Meanwhile, Suikoden has been a victim of odd marketing, such as the horrid cover art for Suikoden 1, lack of copies for Suikoden 2 leading to extremely high second hand copies, completely alienating PAL regions by not making Suikoden 3 PAL versions... etc. Konami has basically been shooting themselves in their feet when it comes to their fan management policies.

[thcrock]

I don't think Tierkreis was bad by any means, but I'd stop well short of calling it excellent. Judging it outside of being a Suikoden game, it didn't really bring anything to the table. It just watered down concepts from the main series. I could argue that Suikoden III was a more drastic change for the series, but the changes were actually innovative, not watering down. Tierkreis was decent, but I'd still just call it 'competent', and the Suikoden series has many entries that are much more than competent. I haven't played any other DS RPGs, but if that's 'excellent' for the system, then the system is in awful RPG shape.

[Xelinis]

Once when I basically charged into Konami and spoke with Fumi Ishikawa to deliver a petition, she said she wasn't allowed to speak with fans directly (although we did chat for about 30 minutes).

...go on.

[Novelist_Games]

I remember the same topic being brought up in the past, but having been involved in other fandoms as well, I don't see Suikoden fans as being any different from fans of other series. In fact, Raww for example has had a very positive effect on the series as a whole, as the localization staff for Suikoden V specifically mentioned how they were extra careful to make sure they avoid ending up on Raww's site. Thus, it seems like critique is welcomed by those involved in the production of the series.

However, one peculiarity when dealing with Konami is how they are extremely hesitant towards having direct contact with fans. Konami is well known for having the most draconian and byzantine fansite policies out there, and have sued fans for using what they considered improper use of official artwork. This has obviously resulted in less fansites-- meaning less fans overall, especially for their "less marketable" francises.

Konami tends to give more creative freedom to lucrative franchises, such as MGS and whatnot, and the creators for those series can pretty much do whatever they want. Meanwhile, for lesser franchises such as Suikoden, staff gets switched around based on corporate needs and thus there's a considerable lack of continuity within the "suikoden team" itself. Even within the team, they are not allowed to communicate with fans directly.

Once when I basically charged into Konami and spoke with Fumi Ishikawa to deliver a petition, she said she wasn't allowed to speak with fans directly (although we did chat for about 30 minutes). The whole secrecy baffeled me, when it would obviously invigorate fans if they can have some sort of communication with the creators themselves.

My experience with other developers, such as Nipponichi Software, have been a lot more friendly and less "corporate." Extreme cases are developers who actually include fans within their development team, such as how CCP Games runs Eve Online. In such cases communication between fans and the developers is pretty direct.

In the case of Konami, in the 10 years I've run suikoden-related sites, I've been contacted by them once, and that was when they wanted help marketing Tierkreis. Meanwhile, Suikoden has been a victim of odd marketing, such as the horrid cover art for Suikoden 1, lack of copies for Suikoden 2 leading to extremely high second hand copies, completely alienating PAL regions by not making Suikoden 3 PAL versions... etc. Konami has basically been shooting themselves in their feet when it comes to their fan management policies.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's thought about this before, then. I was beginning to think no one else understood what I was getting at.

Their behaviour, in regards to having no direct contact with fans, is very peculiar! Why do you think this might be? Simply because they don't want the development team to be influenced by the fans' opinions or so that they don't accidentally alude to any unannounced facts? The fact that it's taken them 10 years for you to only be contacted once is, to be frank, extremely poor on their part. Konami hasn't done themselves a lot of favours as you rightly said, in regards to marketing. I'm definitely a completely confused victim of them not releasing Suikoden III in PAL territories.

But what do you think fans can do to change this? You've accurately described the state of how things are but it seems like a lot of fans have simply accepted it. Do you think there is anything that fans can do to actually change the way that Konami are in regards to the Suikoden series?

An idea I had (yes not that Konami will or even should take note) is fans actually putting down a cash "deposit" directly to Konami for certain games, if you will i.e. if fans want a PAL version of III released, to actually directly pay a deposit for it to Konami in order to fund/encourage it. If fans make that concrete commitment, it will actually give Konami an accurate sales forcaste---instead of fans simply saying "oh yeah, please make it, we will buy it, honest".

[thcrock]

Once when I basically charged into Konami and spoke with Fumi Ishikawa to deliver a petition, she said she wasn't allowed to speak with fans directly (although we did chat for about 30 minutes).

...go on.

Can I post the picture, Vextor?

[Vextor]

Not a problem Korn. I think there also was a report on my entire quest back in 2003.

About whether fans can do anything, all you can do is keep trying, but as it stands there's really no direct way to contact Konami. Previously there was a "comment box" in the Japanese Suikoden seires site, but it's gone now.

The added difficulty for non-Japanese speaking fans is that Konami Digital Entertainment (their north american branch) knows very little about development being done in Japan. They're basically just marketing folks, so speaking with them is sort of like talking with a used car salesman.

In the end, what speaks loudest is sales figures, so if fans don't like Tierkreis, it would make sense to not buy it.

[thcrock]

I can't find your quest report anywhere. Do you know where you posted it?

[Vextor]

I'll look for it later on. I probably have it saved somewhere.

[Nikisaur]

You misunderstand me, though, I whole heartedly agree that everyone has the right to voice their opinion, ESPECIALLY if you're a fan of something. It's the way in which people go about it that I have a "problem" with; simply saying something is "crap" without actually discussing WHY. That's what constructive criticism is (not that I'm patronising), to actually analyze and discuss rather than simply disregard.

No, I didn't misunderstand you at all. A fan has every right to express their opinion in any way they wish. Saying something is crap without saying why is a poor review, or sometimes a little irritating if you're looking for more detail, but it's the fan's opinion and gets the point across pretty well, I think. As for constructive criticism, who says that's a fan's job? There are reviewers for that kind of thing, which are going to have more of an impact on the series than the fans word.

Supporting simply isn't buying directly, as buying the games, playing them and sharing your passion for them is great support in and of itself so maybe those who can afford to buy them brand new will.

But you said:

not buying Tierkreis AT ALL is not giving your support to the series

Nevermind, I think I get what you mean. But I think the best way to state you don't want more Tierkreis is to not buy it. Supporting/purchasing Tierkreis because it says Suikoden in the title might not be the best move. I bought it second hand, so i'm pretty pleased that I'm not part of the sales figures... Although unless I'm mistaken,no one else in my country will be either (Good one Konami).

It's a shame that you didn't enjoy Tierkreis either. You're definitely entitled to your opinion of it, so there's no need to strongly defend it. But perhaps, like Tactics/Rhapsodia, another play through might change your opinion of it a little, just a thought?

Maybe. Like I said, I will give it another go, I just really don't have the patience for it right now. And it's not really the same situation as IV/Tactics. Those are two games I enjoyed and they complimented eachother, increasing my opinion of both. Tierkreis was just *yawn* in the first place.