Are Suikoden fans THE problem?

[Iesous]

My Final Fantasy argument is not "ludicrous" at all; forgive me but where is it written in stone that all games in the Suikoden series HAVE to have a connecting story?

It might not be written on stone, but it's certainly clear. Any time that you have 9 games in a series which are all interconnected, you have a precedent. Four different game formats have been used in these 9 games (the standard, strategy, anime/text, and cards). The connected story is what matters.

[eldrasidar]

to novelist
suikoden IV did get a lot of scorn for a lot of reasons from a lot of people. things like only 4 person parties, excessive random battles, long travel time, short gameplay time, lack of character development, etc. Having characters like Ted gave long time suikoden fans a reason to play through it, but they inspire a new player to overlook so many of the flaws of the game. Suikoden 4 is the worst reviewed suikoden in the series for a reason. I don't think there is anyone here who would say they would have bought suikoden 4 on it's own merits. Just like many people didn't buy Final Fantasy 7: Dirge of Cerberus on it's own merits, but rather because they had already played Final Fantasy 7. More importantly, if suikoden 6 were awesome, and then connected to tierkreis, one would suddenly compare the two, and wonder why Tierkreis is not as good as six, at which point it looks even worse than it is, in the same way that suikoden 1 looks worse than it is when put next to suikoden 2.

[Novelist_Games]

Yes, Iesous, I can definitely understand that all of the games that have previously been released in the series have a connected story and fans therefore EXPECT sequels to follow suit BUT just because one doesn't, why does it make it any less of a Suikoden game? Why can't fans embrace difference? It doesn't always have to be negative. Instead of simply pointing out all of Suikoden Tierkreis' faults, why not make constructive criticisms that could actually help improve a sequel, if one was to be made?

But, eldrasidar, that's my point; people wouldn't have bought Suikoden IV or accepted it as a Suikoden game on it's own merits---they only did so because it DID have connections with the main series inserted into it, such as Ted. I was proposing that if Suikoden Tierkreis had some or any connection to the main series, such as including an iconic character like Ted, would fans of the series then "accept" it as a Suikoden game. It isn't a case of comparing one game to another, as my point is the simple fact that because Suikoden IV had those connections, no matter how lacking it was in other Suikoden areas, it was still accepted as a Suikoden game.

On a personal note, although I've already stated that Suikoden II is my favourite game in the series, Suikoden I most certainly isn't far off and I wouldn't by any means consider it to "look worse".

[eldrasidar]

sure, we count suikoden 4 as a suikoden game because it has connections to other games, but we don't count it as a good game because of that. likewise we don't count suikoden tierkreis as a suikoden game because it is lacking those connections, but then it is also only a mediocre game in it's own right. If suikoden 6 had connections to only tierkreis we wouldn't count six as a suikoden, just like Final Fantasy doesn't count Tactics as part of the main line of the series. Now if it had connections to both tierkreis and 1-5, we would count it as a mainline suikoden, but only because of the connections to 1-5, and not tierkreis, in much the same way that Final Fantasy 12 is not considered part of the tactics line, although it takes place in the same world as tactics.

I'm not saying suikoden 1 is worse because of 2, just that, suikoden improves so much on suikoden 1, that having played suikoden 2 prior to suikoden 1, when you play suikoden 1, it feels clunky by comparison, because 2 improved or fixed many things about 1, such as having the ability to wield multiple runes, better character development(particularly with minor characters), better storytelling, more balanced combat stats, a better/more engaging war system(IMO), and improved graphics(probably the least important, although, it was a serious improvement with regards to character portraits). I have experienced a similar effect playing the dynasty warriors series from 3-5. I played them all in order, and enjoyed each thoroughly while doing so, but having played 5 now for a while, if I go back to 3, I find it less enjoyable, because I have grown accustomed to the improvements 4 and 5 brought to the gameplay.

[Vextor]

Considering how Suikoden isn't a mainstream title like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, the fans tend to have a fairly defined reason for liking the series. Specifically, most fans like Suikoden because of the continuity of the setting. Suikoden basically takes place in the same world, although the stories take place in different times in history. Thus, when Suikoden IV was announced as taking place in the Island Nations, fans already knew where it was because we've heard of that location since Suikoden II, and have been thinking about that place for a couple of years. That made fans excited for the title, etc.

Tierkreis exists outside all of that established setting, and thus most of the fans who have stuck with the series all these years wouldn't find it very appealing, because it isn't connected with the established setting (into which the fans have emotionally invested over the years). To fans like this (including me), the feeling would be we'd play some other game rather than playing a generic J-RPG where a teenager saves the world from an evil-protagonist who is also a leader of some dubious religion. The same plot is often seen as cliche for the typical suikoden fan, who tends to prefer gray-area plots based on regional politics instead of lofty world-saving paradigms.

I'm not saying Tierkreis completely lacks Suikoden-ness though, I did enjoy the portion where you had to deal with Janam because clearly the empire wasn't entirely good, but you had to work with them and navigate through the courtly intrigue of the wives, etc. However, the Janam plotline ended quickly and their entire existence is eliminated-- which felt like a waste of an excellent plot device. The game lost much interest to me after liberating Astrasia, because I was hoping Guntram is one of those betraying guys but he ended up being pure and good, and this all I had left was a clear good / evil plotline.

Another problem is how they eliminated many familiar game mechanics that separated Suikoden from other JRPGs, such as the war battles, the 1-on-1 battles, the lack of Magic Points, the weapon system, and probably a few more things I'm missing. They tried to mimic the war battles and duels, but it was basically using the same game mechanics as their normal battles, which felt anti-climatic. The unwinnable battles were also tedious, and the fact that the villains were not very interesting made the whole process all the more painful.

The music was good though, and that's probably because they seemed to have used music arrange from Miki Higashino's original score. It certainly made me feel like I was playing a suikoden game at times. I must say Miki Higashino is truly an awesome composer who has defined Konami's music (and how stupid of them to let her quit). And I call her composer because she actually composed a score for the Warsaw Chamber Orchestra, which means she's not just some game music creator but a full blown musical genius... anyhow I got side-tracked.

[Antimatzist]

Well, since this developed in a discussion about Tierkreis being a real Suikoden, I will throw my 2 cents into it too.

I think Tierkreis took more from the original games than just continuity. Most characters look interesting, but after you recruit them, they get rarely some more backstory than that. Over the past Suikoden titles, Konami got a lot of ideas how to get information about characters: detectives, confession rooms, comment boxes... And all Tierkreis gives you are some stupid missions which bring you some nice info, but not as much as a detective.
Also, Duels, War Battles and (very important!) mini-games are missing. I don`t understand especially the last point, as that would add some fun to the game itself. And there are plenty of characters which could include a minigame (Farming? Some funny ship thing with the pirates? etc)

I played through it once and I wanted to play it a second time for walkthroughs etc, but I couldn't, this game has no replay value at all. The only bonus you get for getting all characters is a short scene, in other titles it gave you way more (a completely different ending, the possibility for converting your data, an entire new chapter,...) for that. This all adds to the linearity which other Suikoden titles had not so strongly imo (at least I could distract myself for an hour or so most of the time with activities in my castle)

So I think it would be fair to say that Tierkreis is not a full-fledged Suikoden title. Of course you could say "Tactics and Suikogaiden did have even less in common!", but these games' gameplay mechanics work completely different, in contrast to Tierkreis which is the same genre like the other main titles.

... and a bit more topic-orientated: I don't think that Suikodenfans are the problem. I know Suikodenfans as dedicated, but not too euphoric. I didn't think that Suikoden fans were to harsh with Tierkreis, I guess everybody tried to see the best in it.. but after some time, most realize that there is nearly nothing good in it. I mean, c'mon, Elenor was underwhelming as a tactician, but LIU????

[Xelinis]

I must say Miki Higashino is truly an awesome composer who has defined Konami's music (and how stupid of them to let her quit).

No company should get in the way of a woman's maternity leave.

[thcrock]

The music was good though, and that's probably because they seemed to have used music arrange from Miki Higashino's original score. It certainly made me feel like I was playing a suikoden game at times. I must say Miki Higashino is truly an awesome composer who has defined Konami's music (and how stupid of them to let her quit). And I call her composer because she actually composed a score for the Warsaw Chamber Orchestra, which means she's not just some game music creator but a full blown musical genius... anyhow I got side-tracked.

Do you mean the Warsaw Orchestra's contributions to the Suikoden II soundtrack, or something else? I noticed that they're credited on it, particularly for the intro movie (maybe other stuff). But if there's other, non-Suikoden stuff of hers , I'd love to hear it. And yes, I have the Tsukiyo ni Saraba soundtrack, and that was alright (a lot of the jazz sounded pretty cheesy).

[Vextor]

No company should get in the way of a woman's maternity leave.

Exactly, and as a result she had to quit instead of getting a maternity leave.
What's worse, her husband was against her pursuing her career after the baby grew up enough, so she divorced the dumbass.

Do you mean the Warsaw Orchestra's contributions to the Suikoden II soundtrack, or something else? I noticed that they're credited on it, particularly for the intro movie (maybe other stuff). But if there's other, non-Suikoden stuff of hers , I'd love to hear it. And yes, I have the Tsukiyo ni Saraba soundtrack, and that was alright (a lot of the jazz sounded pretty cheesy).

Yeah, it's the Suikoden II soundtrack one.

[Sardemox]

After skimming over the majority of posts here and taking the question into thought myself for several minutes. I decided to stop lurking and make a post myself.

I truly do not believe the fans are the problem at all, we, the fans are not even half the problem. Some Suikoden fans tend to criticize Konami's decisions more then others, but every RPG that has a decent number of fans gets the same thing. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just something that tends to happen.

To be prefectly honest, I think Raww is right here, the thing that sticks out most in his first post to me was in regards to your "Buy it & Try it" comment where his reply was "Why would I buy something that is crap" or something along those lines, this really stood out to me.

Take a moment to think back to when you played Suikoden ( any of them, not in any order ) for your first time. It's not like you immediately knew everything about it and understood the whole world it was set in. But, over time, as the series got larger and more games were release. Bit by bit you learned more about the people, places and events that take place in the Suikoden universe. Some, like Jeane and Viki tend to reoccur in every game ( based in the main setting ) and if you play them all, no matter what order. You learn more about them. That is one of the main selling points of Suikoden, is the connections that are made by simply following the series.

Now, take a look at Suikoden I. When it was released, nobody really knew what was going to come after it. No idea of a sequel, a prequal, of characters that would show up in other parts of the series. It was brand new, it was just beginning to become what it is today. I played through Tierkreis and I must say I was mildly disappointed, it wasn't a horrible game but as a long-time fan of the series I just don't want to start off in a new world/dimension, I'm not ready for that kind of change and I know alot of other Suikoden Fans feel the same way, which brought the criticism that Tierkreis got. Some people who are newer to the series probably enjoyed it more then I did, because it isn't a bad game, it's just a new setting that I can't enjoy because I am not ready for it. I am sure some of the older Suikoden Fans enjoyed it just the same, but they are probably more prepared to work in a new world within the Suikoden Franchise then the rest of us are. Konami definitely pulled the 'New World' thing way too soon, they should have continued working on the world they already have until there is literally nothing left to do with it. What about New Armes? What about the Armes Dynasty? The Sindar? Nagarea? The Nameless Lands? The First Fire Bringer War? There is still so much they can do, they just don't know it.

All in all, the problem doesn't lie with the fans. Simply in the individual's willingness to play the game in a new environment with a similar system. In some ways, it's just another Suikoden. But in other ways, its totally new and foreign to us. But with that said, I'm not going to say 'no' to a Tierkreis 2. If they work on it and expand upon what they have, they could possibly create a new world that all Suikoden Fans enjoy. It could end up just as good as the world that the rest of the series takes place in, they just have to start making connections, reoccuring situations and similarities between the games to make it feel more.. I don't know how to put it. Perhaps.. original to the Suikoden series?

Bah, if none of that makes sense I apologize. I tend to ramble on and switch topic, I simply hope that I got my point across validly. If not I will make a new post at a later date which possibly makes more sense.

[LanceHeart]

Anyway, let's say a real Suikoden VI is released and it's completely badass. What if the story somehow links what we all know and love with the story of Tierkreis? Think Tierkreis would still get all the hate that it gets?

In my case? It would get even more hate.
Having to shoehorn Tierkreis into the rest of the franchise would be the equivalent of creating a crossover game. The content of Tierkreis is so far removed from the original world that trying to make both fit would require departing from the general timeline we know (let's say the world compressions are what actually made the True Runes or something) or turn the plot into Tierkreis HD (the world compressions are happening in the old world). Short of that, we're looking at vague inside references to Tierkreis at best and name dropping at worst.

Anyway, the problem Suikoden has among its fanbase is about the same a number of others have with theirs. Being most knowledgeable about the Mega Man franchise, it's amazing to see how fractured its fans are. Between the original (Classic), X, Legends, and Battle Network families of games, there are people who love and hate a mishmash of them and even among those likes and dislikes you'll never find the same reasons for those preferences.

As for the commercial success of Suikoden? That's all on Konami. Suikoden V had a good critical response compared to its predecessors but it didn't get converted into sales, in spite of being released on the best selling console of all time (in 2005). Suikoden Tierkreis also got a good critical response from outlets that didn't have prior knowledge of the franchise, but that also didn't end up netting much more sales than SV. The game got saved by the obviously lower financial investment for its development.

I've mentioned many times before that well advertised and/or Sony-backed JRPGs have sold very well on the PS3 in Japan, to the tune of at or above 100K (which is what Suikoden is already doing). Even Nintendo's JRPGs sell well on the Wii when pushed properly. Suikoden could definitely return to consoles if Konami would accept that they have a minimum of responsibility that goes with the brand name they created.

[Novelist_Games]

Sorry for the late reply, everyone, but I’ve had quite a few deadlines at work of late. It’s great to return to the topic to see that more people are getting involved, though, and are also providing excellent opinions and clear examples behind them!
To eldreasidar, I do completely understand that the connections between each of the games is the main selling point for many, if not all Suikoden fans. However, people are still taking it literally to only mean that a certain game is only a Suikoden game if it has those connections. Even if you were to remove all of the connections that connect each Suikoden game to the other, in my opnion, they would all each be Suikoden games in their own right for so many more reasons.
I do understand your point about the “improvements” between Suikoden I and II, however, in this case, it doesn’t affect me. I think it’s because each of the games have their own unique characters, setting and story that deems that they should still be played, regardless of which one is “better”. Your Dynasty Warriors example was a good one and, although they, too, have their own stories, I see them much more in line with many sports series---i.e. they simply reiterate and upgrade.


To Vextor, I most definitely think that you speak the most sense, as you do so subjectively. Again, it’s true, the lack of connections and continuity would result in a lack of interest from long-time fans and, yes, the plot of Suikoden Tierkreis certainly was more stereotypical. However, it’s your ability to see that there are many Suikoden influences; the nation of Janam that, as you said, provided the slight political grey area that long-time fans have come to enjoy and that the musical score successfully evoked the sense that you were playing a Suikoden game, due to it being an arrangement of Miki Higashino’s original score.
That’s not to say that I can’t be subjective, either. I definitely agree with you that Janam was removed from the game far too quickly and, again, that the plot had more of a clear cut good vs evil, especially with its villains. It’s definitely a shame that they weren’t able to recreate the atmosphere of the war battles, too. You can’t blame them for trying, as the multiple party scenarios did help toward creating a sense of using your army’s forces but in the end it couldn’t stand up completely.


To Antimatzist, I actually, wholeheartedly, agree with a lot of the points that you raise. It still comes down to the argument that just because Suikoden Tierkreis didn’t include staples of the series, it doesn’t make it any less of a Suikoden game. However, a lot of the gameplay features that you listed were certainly sorely missed. The shame in all this is that I absolutely fell in love with the headquarters in Suikoden Tierkreis and, like you said, wish that there was certainly more of a reason to explore it further. It was beautiful for one, it’s backdrops, cultural design, quirky room layout and---most importantly---it’s castle theme were extremely captivating. Although the world outside of it was unknown in regards to existing Suikoden geography, when inside it, I could very much imagine stepping outside of it and finding myself in the Queendom of Falena or the Grasslands.
But these points are exactly what I mean; they ARE constructive criticism, clearly pointing out what the “faults” were in Suikoden Tierkreis rather than simply labelling it as “crap”.


To Sardemox, in regards to “Buy it & Try it”, Suikoden Tierkreis was completely new and, although there was (some) media surrounding the game before its release, no one can truly know what a game is like before they play it themselves. Buy it, rent it, in any way you can playing it at least once for yourself is what I’m talking about. If you buy it/rent it (in full!) and then dislike it, then that’s fair enough. If they were to then release a sequel to Suikoden Tierkreis you then wouldn’t buy it in order to give Konami the clear indication that you disliked the first one. However, simply going on hearsay or trying it briefly is not giving Konami your full support for the time and effort that they’ve taken to develop it. If you disagree with that then fine, you’re fully entitled to, but that’s my personal opinion.

In regards to your Suikoden I argument, let’s look at it from another angle. What if Suikoden Tierkreis had been released first, before any of the others? What if you then played Suikoden I afterwards? It would face all of the same “problems” that Suikoden Tierkreis has now in the eyes of the fans; there would be no connecting characters, geography, story or timeline, etc, and it would also have game mechanics that Suikoden Tierkreis didn’t. Do you think fans of the series would then turn around and say that Suikoden I wasn’t a Suikoden game? I, personally, extremely, highly doubt it.


To LanceHeart, in short, I also agree. I’m not saying that Suikoden fans are fully at fault with the series’ missed opportunity. Konami could certainly do a LOT more to ensure that their games reach new audiences in other territories and also to be marketed successfully in existing ones.


In closing, quite a few people have commented that all game series have similar fans, that they’re all picky and criticise certain games in a series. However, I’ve personally always disliked the majority vote and pose this: why, just because fans in other series act in the same way, is it necessarily “right”? Why does it excuse us as fans of the series that we love from doing things that we perhaps should? From trying to change and provide positive, constructive criticism instead of baseless insults towards certain games in the series?

[Hirathien]

I disagree with the above mentioned comment about if Tierkries comes first, Suikoden I wouldn't have the problems Tierkries have at all. You're looking at a game that changes a lot of things about the Suikoden FRANCHISE, 5 maingames, some spin-offs or other stuff like it.

If Suikoden I would have been after Tierkries, i don't think the general population would have cared that much. The first game is basically the test anyways. The rest usually follows and improves (most of the times, but by god, not always.).

Making drastic changes in a franchise that already has a solid fanbase is, risky, often met with negativity and discomfort.

[Novelist_Games]

This confused face now makes no sense with the bot post having been removed!

Come on guys, I've already witnessed how passionate you are at discussion. Don't be shy of adding your thoughts!

[Hirathien]

Lo and behold, we have a bot. With forbidden links in his signature no less!