The Next Suikoden Needs a Luca Blight Type Bad Guy...

[Author]

Windy, Luca, Jowy, Luc, Craig, all involved in killing of innocent lives

Name people who Jowy killed and you considered innocent, not considering war causalities.

[Runemaster]

Windy, Luca, Jowy, Luc, Craig, all involved in killing of innocent lives

Name people who Jowy killed and you considered innocent, not considering war causalities.

Dunnow the story behind it but Annabelle is my best answer.

[Author]

Windy, Luca, Jowy, Luc, Craig, all involved in killing of innocent lives

Name people who Jowy killed and you considered innocent, not considering war causalities.

Dunnow the story behind it but Annabelle is my best answer.

Politics. Not the same as war, but not the same as being innocent either.

Originally, this had a wall of text, but I'm saving my words once I can prove my point because I might be accused again of acting like a broken cassette tape.

[Arya]

No matter how you dress it up, it was still cold-blooded murder.

[Mio]

Windy, Luca, Jowy, Luc, Craig, all involved in killing of innocent lives

Name people who Jowy killed and you considered innocent, not considering war causalities.

its not (completely) bad to sacrifice the people of Muse since its okay, they're in war

third time to say this line

i'm becoming more and more uncomfortable with this 'politics' things

i understand that you need to kill in the name of war

but now you're telling us it's not a 'completely bad' thing to kill in the name of politics?

when in reality, Jowy killed Agares and Annabelle for his own personal agenda of becoming crowned king of Highland

the same with Marscal for murdering an entire castle of Falenan royalties and every people inside just to get his hands on the Sun Rune

there's also this beaver dam assault, though i recall casualties were to a minimum but still

still politics? cause all i see is a bunch of spoiled men bent on aacquiring whatever it is they want with little regard for who gets to suffer in the process

people die because of a man's personal ambition

not because of politics nor war

[KFCrispy]

cold-blooded murder is seen as "bad" in most cultures, but there can be cultures that celebrate it because it helps to ensure the survival of the group. you can put a spin on everything. you and most other people use our cultural/moral values to judge what is "good" and "evil". people oppose each other because they have different beliefs, but both can be morally wrong, both can be morally right. in I Am Legend (the book), the protagonist realizes he was the "villain" because he was killing the new race of beings, and the new race was simply trying to survive; getting rid of him would ensure their survival. these types of stories challenge our common beliefs and morals.

in most games we don't have such complicated conflicts; we have a clearly defined villain who goes against the common set of morals and values that most of the world believes in. Suikoden is no exception to this problem. even though it tries to provide some gray area, the protagonist always wants to stop the antagonist from doing those morally wrong deeds. however, in many stories the protagonist is usually allowed to do morally corrupt deeds to defeat the enemy in these types of stories and get away with it (extreme ones are called vigilantes).

[Author]

when in reality, Jowy killed Agares and Annabelle for his own personal agenda of becoming crowned king of Highland

Riiiiight

We don't really know, but it's politics. You can't be naive to deny that. You say "people's ambition" but you can't really say if Jowy already had that sort of ambition.

You put things too straightforward. As long as people kill innocent lives because of their ambitions, they're bad. Well, it's quite natural for it to happen. There are cases when the people in politics, like Luca Blight, are bad themselves. There are cases when the people in politics, like Annabel, are good themselves. It just so happens they're in politics.

For Marscal, it wasn't right, but rather than mass murder, it was all about politics. He had nothing personal against them.

As much as you want to just put in front of people your definition for the morals, it will never happen.

That's all I wanted to say. Officially leaving this topic now XD That's all my argument is without repeating what I say. Maybe new people will come in.

[Seiso]

In this kind of discution is dificult to have an agreement, because the line between "Evil" and "Good" is very slim. It happens due to your moral formation, which is diferent from one to another, if you think that kill someone is a bad thing, you're judging that the people who have done that is evil, even considering the ones who done that by culture/social statement (Some Indigenous people believed that it was a god's wish, to kill and to die by that is a very blessed and good act.)

There is a statement in my profession (Sorry, I'm not a english native speaker so maybe I make some mistakes or misundertandings): Forget your cultural ways when you're dealing with other people, acept that they are, and the same goes to that kind of figurative statement of Evil and Good, everything is in your mind.

To kill is wrong? Depends, everything depends in this world. Depends the way you think, the way you act, even a good act can be seen in a bad way if it's contrary to your beliefs.

When it's easy to read which one is the "bad" one, the villain, it's easy to say why their acts is wrong, but when the situation is more twisted it complicates the things, and in a war or political situation, generally there isn't a right and wrong part, everyone is right and wrong in the same time, just changes the view of the situation.

[Mio]

We don't really know, but it's politics. You can't be naive to deny that. You say "people's ambition" but you can't really say if Jowy already had that sort of ambition.

lol you said so yourself what Jowy's ambition was

Jowy Atreides-Blight
Goal: Become King

if you don't know or can't say that it was a part of Jowy's ambition then I do/can

-kill Annabelle to get a rank in the army and from that work your way to the top

all part of the said goal

Annabelle, Agares, the people of Muse, were the ones to suffer in that process

also i said one man's ambition

hello? were you paying attention??

You put things too straightforward. As long as people kill innocent lives because of their ambitions, they're bad.

uhh of course??

state one example that completely debunk this statement

OMG your post has so many flaws i don't even wanna get worked up about them!! <<yes exclaiming out loud

and then your even saying it's futile so i should not express my own personal view ??

As much as you want to just put in front of people your definition for the morals, it will never happen.

what's this?? lowering my morale?? oooohhh, how low can you go?

anyway personal attacks are meant to be ignored in an argument XD XD

so i guess you have to walk away, well just in case, if you find a new word you can hide under aside from villainous, war, or politics

feel free to present

[Rezard]

hello? were you paying attention??

You put things too straightforward. As long as people kill innocent lives because of their ambitions, they're bad.

uhh of course??

state one example that completely debunk this statement

There are many examples:

- A police officer is trying to eliminate a dangerous criminal, but he mistook you for the criminal, before he kills you, you kill him first. Self defense.
- Someone is infected with a dangerous disease that can cause people to die on masses, you kill him to prevent the disease to spread.
- You're stuck in an isolated place with no/little food, you steal to feed your son. You can even kill someone, if there is no other way to obtain this food.

Jowy actually killed Anabelle to make the war short, he desired to avoid a long and cruel war where people would suffer a lot more than just the fall o Muse. It was intended to be an act of good, not evil. Also the military commander of the opposing faction doesn't fall as "innocent people", she was the enemy, you kill the enemy in war.

I think what was cool about Lucca was not how "evil" he was, but how powerfull he was. He was the only vilain to actually defeat your main tactician. I am in for powerfull vilains, it is always more fun to defeat them.

[KFCrispy]

not to mention everybody kills innocent living things to eat, even if it's indirect.

I think what was cool about Lucca was not how "evil" he was, but how powerfull he was. He was the only vilain to actually defeat your main tactician. I am in for powerfull vilains, it is always more fun to defeat them.

yeah but Luca's strategy was disappearing and reappearing somewhere else while somebody damaging everybody at the same time.

[Mio]

- A police officer is trying to eliminate a dangerous criminal, but he mistook you for the criminal, before he kills you, you kill him first. Self defense.
- Someone is infected with a dangerous disease that can cause people to die on masses, you kill him to prevent the disease to spread.
- You're stuck in an isolated place with no/little food, you steal to feed your son. You can even kill someone, if there is no other way to obtain this food.

Jowy actually killed Anabelle to make the war short, he desired to avoid a long and cruel war where people would suffer a lot more than just the fall o Muse. It was intended to be an act of good, not evil. Also the military commander of the opposing faction doesn't fall as "innocent people", she was the enemy, you kill the enemy in war.

your examples fall under the category of survival

its the same category when you are inside war

thats why i never argued that they are in war

unless you call 'staying alive' a plan/ambition

then those scenarios of 'kill or be killed' are invalid

in any case, who is Jowy to decide the fate of the mayor of Muse?

the way I see it, Annabelle served as an accessory to Jowy's ambition

no matter what the ulterior motive, i think it's bad to treat people that way

@KFCrispy
*sigh*

[Soul Eater]

This thread seems to have turned into a debate on what Good/Evil are.

I really want to know how many suikoden fans prefer the angry, strong main villan that is supported by a strategist and how many prefer the devious, plotting villan that has strong generals.

[Masamune.]

Suikoden doesn't NEED any specific villain. I don't see the sense in basing the next villain on a previous one. I'm sure the next one will be designed to fit the story world, and just a throwback to Luca Blight.

[Rezard]

yeah but Luca's strategy was disappearing and reappearing somewhere else while somebody damaging everybody at the same time.

I kind of used my imagination in this case. I imaginaned the White Wolf Fang charging at the midle of your army and breaking the line, and then your soliders run for their lifes, scared of the cruel Lucca Blight. I imagin Lucca would be as scary as the real Dracula, he was a master of psicological war.

That's probably what happened, despite the fact we just see Lucca disappearing and reappearing.

your examples fall under the category of survival

its the same category when you are inside war

thats why i never argued that they are in war

unless you call 'staying alive' a plan/ambition

then those scenarios of 'kill or be killed' are invalid

Well... I was actually just pointing it out that there are times when you can kill inncocent people. It is simple, you can do something bad for a good cause. Of course, when it is a life for a life, it is clear and unquestionable that is possible, but when it is a life for something else... then it is debatable.

I think it is pretty reasonable to kill someone to stop a long and devastating war. In the end we prevent the loss of lifes.

in any case, who is Jowy to decide the fate of the mayor of Muse?

the way I see it, Annabelle served as an accessory to Jowy's ambition

What? You have to be a king to act on our free will? He did what he believe was best. You talk about Jowy goal as "an ill ambition to become a king", but he did that to quickly stop the war, not to became king and boss others around. He was the only one who could do it.

I think the real problem was not killing Annabele, but becaming a traitor. If they fought evenly on the field of battle, I believe everybody would agree it was not evil. He abbused Riou and the others trust in him, thay's why he manage to kill Annabele. It was despicable, but you can argue it was for a good cause.