Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

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Punkaiser
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Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby Punkaiser » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:32 am

Probably not many people care about this game anymore, but seeing how the other suikodens already or gonna have it at least one ranking, here I add the new level 99 characters ranking based on physical damage potential:

Level 99 Physical DD ranking

Rules to evaluate:
1. Final score is the criterion which is calculated from (total base attack) * (total damage modifier)
2. If the character uses unite/rune then he will get no bonus damage modifier from critical hit
3. If the character uses normal attack and his skill stat is lower than 132 then he will be penalized -1 in ranking because of low hit rate
4. Ranking chart:
Rank E: final score < 1500
Rank D: 1500 < final score < 1750
Rank C: 1750 < final score < 2000
Rank B: 2000 < final score < 2250
Rank A: 2250 < final score < 2500
Rank S: 2500 < final score

...End of rules...
Last edited by Punkaiser on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eldrasidar
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby eldrasidar » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:28 pm

you may want to fix your link up there, but anyways, it looks good, here's a few flaws I could see with it:

one is that you have several characters listed with 3 runes who are borderline when it comes to actually opening up that slot, namely akaghi, aldo, axel, champo, dario, jewel, rachel, reinhold, and ugetsu. If they don't get that slot, their damage will dramatically decrease, so at the very least they need an asterisk to make the reader aware of that possibility. it seems fair if you're penalizing for characters that might have bad accuracy, that you would also do so for characters that might not have enough magic for 3 rune slots

another is that the grades aren't particularly even from top and the bottom. Although they are evenly spaced numerically for the most part, that doesn't really reflect the way the characters are actually spaced out, particularly at the top tiers. In particular, there's far too many characters with C's and A's. I've redistributed the grades and added a 7th grade(SS) to make a more accurate bell curve:

grade = range (number of characters with final score in that range, not factoring in hit rate/sleepiness/lack of runes*)
E =1000-1500(7 characters)
D =1501-1900(9 characters)
C =1901-2150(14 characters)
B =2151-2400(13 characters)
A =2401-2900(8 characters)
S =2901-4000(3 characters)
SS =4001+(Kika)

*characters with bad accuracy or whatever other factor that might limit their actual effective damage should simply be denoted with a minus, so for example, Ornan would be a D- character. That way you still know what kind of damage he deals, but that he is at a disadvantage over other characters in the grade.

I think this more accurately reflect what a player should expect from a particular grade with a much smoother bell curve so that C has been better split into D and C, and A has been better split into SS, S, and A, so that you don't have so many characters occupying a single grade anymore.

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Punkaiser
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby Punkaiser » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:29 pm

I thought about randomness of stats and decided that characters with average magic as 118 is considerred easily remedied with one or two magic stones which won't cost much effort, in comparison to pumping up someone with 93 skill to 132 (average standard)

Ornan is a special case, i think of his potential like a Magic sword user and worse. If this was S1 game which battle usually take more than 2 turns, i could have easily take an average score per turn for him but in S4 here, battle always last one turn and Ornan spends it to sleep, litterally his damage potential becomes 0 for the turn 1 which is crucial. In the end, i still calculate his damage potential upon awakenning however he gets a serious nerf for his trouble.

*characters with bad accuracy or whatever other factor that might limit their actual effective damage should simply be denoted with a minus, so for example, Ornan would be a D- character. That way you still know what kind of damage he deals, but that he is at a disadvantage over other characters in the grade.

in my opinion, just a minus symbol in rank won't be enough since hit rate surely is very important to those who use normal hit. Imagine that every 3 hits that character misses one, relatively he commits negative damage modifier himself as making his result multiply with 0.67(2/3). Just because the game doesnt give out an exact formula for hit rate according to skill stat so i couldn't calculate this damage modifer.

I think this more accurately reflect what a player should expect from a particular grade with a much smoother bell curve so that C has been better split into D and C, and A has been better split into SS, S, and A, so that you don't have so many characters occupying a single grade anymore.
D =1501-1900(9 characters)
C =1901-2150(14 characters)
B =2151-2400
Agree, i will take note and probably be thinking about a new grade chart. However i tend to keep the ranking range in a balanced looking way, but not wildly vary as you proposed so it will take time to think about this.

Link fixed, thank you.

eldrasidar
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby eldrasidar » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:39 pm

The reason I say the hit rate should only be a minus is because at level 99, even a bad hit rate is still good enough to hit most things. Essentially once you hit a certain point, having a higher accuracy doesn't make any real difference. Basically if get around 100 SKL, you're actually fine. you will miss occasionally, but you'll hit something like 85% of the time.

the only reason I changed it was because static blocks of 250 didn't really helpfully delineate the characters. When nearly 40% of of the characters in one category in the middle, and nearly 20% of them in the top category, then it's not really a helpful grading system. Hence why I went for a bell curve instead of a straight chart.

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Punkaiser
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby Punkaiser » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:02 pm

Allright, I will test with characters of 93 skill group and 118 skill group, also 132 skill group to see how often do they miss versus kooluk soldiers. It's true my judgement about hit rate is biased without real practice.

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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby KFCrispy » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:29 pm

are you taking into account that Dario & Gau's unite frequently flops?

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Punkaiser
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby Punkaiser » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:42 am

I thoguht about this issue but don't have the flop rate and not sure which unite has chance to flop, pretty sure not all unites have this problem. I only know of Flare/Lino and Gau/Dario.
Same thing for critical rate of skill rune like Shrike or unite like True friend which aren't related to character's base critical rate. Without these infos, I just ought to ignore them and wait for updates before taking them in calculation because their rarity anyway.

eldrasidar
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby eldrasidar » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:56 am

i would be concerned with the unite's flop rate only if that were the only way for a character to do a large amount of damage, and then it would probably be only worth a minus to their base grade. Likewise an unusually high critical should probably just be denoted by a plus, since it won't always help, but over time it is a slight advantage over others.

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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby KFCrispy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:55 pm

Shrike Rune can critical? how much more dmg does it do? and what about True Friendship?

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Punkaiser
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby Punkaiser » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:36 pm

Everything deal x2 when critical occurs but the chance is very low( there's no damage cap like 9999 in S4 because True friend with level 99 lazlo/snowe can crit hit for 13k+) that's why i think they work in a different formula and not related to characters stats, well we may think that in true friend case critical hit could only be triggered if both Lazlo/Snowe crti hits in that turn, but I'm thinking of Valeria's Falcon rune mechanism in S2 to apply for Mizuki's Shrike, the rune has % crit rate on its own. In my whole 6 playthroughs of this game, 4 times use Lazlo/Snowe/Mizuki in party and have witnessed so far true friend crit hits twice, shrike crit hits just once, I haven't used Reinbach's red rose and other unites enough, so can't say anything bout them.
Last edited by Punkaiser on Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Punkaiser
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby Punkaiser » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:29 am

I tested hit rate with Dario (95 skill), Gau(117 skill), hervey(130 skill) hitting 30 times on the group of soldiers in Na Nal harbor, and it seems at level 99 they almost don't miss at all during the test. To fix my falso judgement about characters with low skill stats, I have lifted their penalty in ranking.

eldrasidar
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby eldrasidar » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:23 am

Glad we got that sorted.

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gildedtalon
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby gildedtalon » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:26 pm

Sticky please
My GameFAQs account now is SheenavsKilley
I already closed gildedtalon, my old account

KFCrispy
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Re: Physical DD ranking <level 99 characters>

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:46 pm

done! thanks again for your contributions


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