Murayama Interview

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sticky-runes
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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby sticky-runes » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:59 pm

Ideally, the 108 should be characters who fight alongside us for a common purpose, right up until their death or our victory.

Jowy was essentially more in the same vein as characters like Sanchez and Sialeeds. They start off as our ally, then reveal their true nature and intentions, that they don't ultimately believe in our cause (despite the fact that they like us as beloved friends and relatives) they are not on the same path as the other 108 characters. Suikoden 3 can suck my hairy white arse because including Luc and Yuber etc. in the 108 made no sense and was totally inconsistent with how the rest of the series handled the 108 stars of destiny. Even Suikoden 4 got it right with how all the 108 stars are people who want to help drive out the Kooluk invasion.

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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby wataru14 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:28 pm

I agree. The Destroyers had no business being on the Tablet.

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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby Sasarai10 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:50 am

wataru14 wrote:I agree. The Destroyers had no business being on the Tablet.


It makes sense actually. The Destroyers were playable, in a bonus chapter, if you had gathered everyone else. But again, SIII was different than other Suikodens in many ways.

What I didn't understand about this game is, why Lulu isn't a SoD but Yun and Jimba are. OK I understand about Jimba since he is more than just a Karaya warrior, but Yun? She appeared only for one chapter, and she wasn't even playable.

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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby Antimatzist » Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:51 am

We could argue a lot how the antagonists actually help your own cause and a character such as Landis, that gym teacher or somebody who plants tomatoes doesn't. I think the idea is intriguing and it doesn't say "Stars of Justice", but "Stars of Destiny". We don't know a thing about this concept and except for a handful of dialogue lines in Suikoden and Suikoden Tierkreis, they aren't even mentioned that often in-game.

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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:14 am

That concept was taken from the novel, but it doesn‘t mean they have to apply it 100%. It was equivalent in the first game, but then in S2 there were already some “original rules broken”, i.e. Ridley/Boris, the beasts and Tomo. They had to do this in order to provide the player this increased character selection (or additional story path). They probably felt that variety and replay value is more important than the 100% consistency of that concept.

As for the S3, Murayama said something about having time pressure at the end, so maybe that had something to do with said guys being SoDs? I mean having guys like let’s say Qlon, Hoi and another kobold instead wouldn’t have changed the game too much. Perhaps they wanted to make the betrayal a surprise by adding them to the stone tablet first? I mean you know there’s something fishy if someone else takes up Luc’s slot on the tablet and suddenly you’re recruiting Luc. Whatever, it’s artistic license.

sticky-runes wrote:Ideally, the 108 should be characters who fight alongside us for a common purpose, right up until their death or our victory.

Actually this applies more to the novel characters. The games’ SoDs all fight alongside you for different purposes.
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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby sticky-runes » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:32 am

All of the Highlanders we defeat towards the end of S2 including Culgan, Seed and Cunningham are fighting under Jowy's banner. So even if Jowy did get added to the tablet after we gain the happy ending and have a reunion between him, Riou and Nanami, it would be totally redundant, as there are no more enemies left to fight. riou's quest is over by the time he returns to Jowy at the Tenzan Pass.

If you're gonna count Jowy as a SOD, you might as well do the same with Barbarossa. Heck, Barbarossa does help us win the war by killing himself and Windy so it would probably make more sense for him to be counted on the tablet than Luc in S3, who we defeat and then leave to die in a ruin.

Wolkendrache wrote:
sticky-runes wrote:Ideally, the 108 should be characters who fight alongside us for a common purpose, right up until their death or our victory.

Actually this applies more to the novel characters. The games’ SoDs all fight alongside you for different purposes.


Hey, whether it's a soldier who wants to fight a corrupt government, a martial-artist who wants new sparing partners or a gambler who just wants to move into our castle to play games, we are all united against a common threat. Even the chefs who cook our meals and the laundress who washes blood out of our clothes are providing services for us in our designated home base while we are working to take down the opposing army. I can totally support the idea of people from all walks of life coming together under one banner, but that idea doesn't apply to the Destroyers in S3.

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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:37 am

Antimatzist wrote:We could argue a lot how the antagonists actually help your own cause and a character such as Landis, that gym teacher or somebody who plants tomatoes doesn't.

The problem is that while Landis, Kenji and many others can be percieved as useless, they do join of their own free will. The Destroyers are the only people that have ever appeared on the Tablet of Promise without wanting to or making a conscious choice to.

In order for the premise to work the Tablet should always be full regardless of if you've recruited someone or not, because every other character on every other tablet has either been part of your group already by the time you get the tablet or agreed to join your group afterwards. The Destroyers just appear on the Tablet because... reasons. It's contrary to every other star recruited before or since.

Though the worst part is probably how the game never even mentions it. The Tablet just appears for no particular reason and no one is the least bit concerned about why there's giant stone with everyone's names on it, including the people they're fighting against. At least in the manga there was a scene of Luc being bothered by appearing on it.
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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:23 am

S2 broke the rules of S1’s concept, but we got benefits from it. S3 broke the rules of both predecessors’ concepts even more drastically, and there seem to be no benefits. And yet, it shouldn’t bother one too much. It’s not what makes the game great or terrible. S4 and S5 revived S1’s concept (with only Euram/Eresh as exception), but that’s not what made these games good or bad. But yeah, I agree that asking Murayama why the Destroyers are SoD makes more sense than asking why Jowy isn’t one. However, judging from the rest of the interview I doubt he would’ve given us a sufficient answer, sorry.
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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby Sasarai10 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:46 am

Raww Le Klueze wrote:The problem is that while Landis, Kenji and many others can be percieved as useless, they do join of their own free will. The Destroyers are the only people that have ever appeared on the Tablet of Promise without wanting to or making a conscious choice to.

In order for the premise to work the Tablet should always be full regardless of if you've recruited someone or not, because every other character on every other tablet has either been part of your group already by the time you get the tablet or agreed to join your group afterwards. The Destroyers just appear on the Tablet because... reasons. It's contrary to every other star recruited before or since.

Though the worst part is probably how the game never even mentions it. The Tablet just appears for no particular reason and no one is the least bit concerned about why there's giant stone with everyone's names on it, including the people they're fighting against. At least in the manga there was a scene of Luc being bothered by appearing on it.


Another thing that's really weird in SIII, is that Leknaat doesn't even appear during the story, but she makes here debut in Luc's bonus chapter only. And the Tablet appears out of the blue as well, once all 3 main protagonists are united. There's neither any scene about the table, nor even a mention. Normally shouldn't Leknaat appear on Thomas who's a Tenkai? Like telling him he should gather people together, and all those stuff?

But actually there's a part in this interview, where Murayama said:

In Suikoden III, the story after the three protagonists finally join up was shortened due to development time restraints.


So I guess chapters 4 and 5 where supposed to be longer, so some mention about the Tablet or even go and visit it during the main story might exist.

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Re: Murayama Interview

Postby wataru14 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:58 pm

There are a few plausible reasons for Leknaat's noninterference 1) she was afraid of Luc's power and knew she couldn't stop him, 2) she knew he was destined to fail and felt she didn't need to get involved, 3) no matter what the stakes were, she new she couldn't bring herself to oppose Luc. My personal feeling is that, while I thinker all were at play to some level, it was more of option 2 than the others. Her dialogue at the end of Chapter 6 pretty much cemented that for me. It was a lesson Luc and Sarah needed to learn themselves.


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