Prop 8... sigh

[Iku]

i really do find it odd that in the most 'advanced' country in the world bigotry still exists to this extent, britain no longer pretends to be the super power it once was but other then france we've gone further then any other country for equality, i just always presumed that in countries like ours the law would always be on the side of justice and it amazed me when the law allowing gay marriages in britain was passed because it seems somewhat silly because i just presumed it was legal because, where im from atleast, noone cares, like really gay pride has been obsolete for the last ten years because its so unimportant to people who your interested in sexually. It kinda scarys me because i honestly dont think its much of a leap from no gay marriages to no gays then to no blacks or jews, because its all based on such a superficial level that you could pick fault with anyone who isnt straight, white, middle aged and male, the bible (i have read it if you care to disagree) does at some point or another pick fault with anyone who doesnt fit said criteria, so for a country that seems to be strongly influenced by its faith whoose to say women should be entitaled to equal rights..... sorry about the rambling but i dunno im just glad i dont live in california...

[Crowley Reborn]

Crap. This went thread got big fast. I would just like to say Marriage in and of itself is a biblical concept, and the gov't needs to make its own form of marriage. That way, (i think it was Pollen who said it) people who want to be married but not have a religious marriage can just go to any gov't building and go 'hey, i wanna marry this person.' No questions asked. As for the crazy religious zealots who are uber antigaymarriage... if you want a religious marriage, do it through your church. There is no reason our government should even recognize such a religious act as marriage in the first place.

[Jowy Atreides]

If certain denominations wish to not recognize same-sex marriages, they should be allowed to do that. You have the option of not having a marriage ceremony, or you can have a judge replace the religious figure performing the ceremony. Or, you can have a priest from a pro-gay denomination do the ceremony.

[Eroschilles]

i really do find it odd that in the most 'advanced' country in the world bigotry still exists to this extent, britain no longer pretends to be the super power it once was but other then france we've gone further then any other country for equality, i just always presumed that in countries like ours the law would always be on the side of justice and it amazed me when the law allowing gay marriages in britain was passed because it seems somewhat silly because i just presumed it was legal because, where im from atleast, noone cares, like really gay pride has been obsolete for the last ten years because its so unimportant to people who your interested in sexually. It kinda scarys me because i honestly dont think its much of a leap from no gay marriages to no gays then to no blacks or jews, because its all based on such a superficial level that you could pick fault with anyone who isnt straight, white, middle aged and male, the bible (i have read it if you care to disagree) does at some point or another pick fault with anyone who doesnt fit said criteria, so for a country that seems to be strongly influenced by its faith whoose to say women should be entitaled to equal rights..... sorry about the rambling but i dunno im just glad i dont live in california...

The Bible doesn't pick fault with all people who are not straight, white, middle aged and male (though most of those could be veiwed as being true - old testament is pro men, and homosexuality is a sin). The old Testament of the Bible was written by Jews, who are Semetic, thus not white. The New Testament of the Bible is a written by many different people, but the gospels are written by Jews.

When the Bible was formed in the 400s AD, 'white people,' the Germanic Barbarian tribes, the Gauls, and the people from England, were all at best second class citizens of the major world government of the time, the Roman Empire. Most of the time the 'white people' were slaves of the Roman Empire. The Romans and Greeks and other Mediterranean are white, but their complection is darker and aren't the traditional WASP that people think about being.

So, when the Bible was written, it was written by those who had very little contact with 'white people.' My point is that the Bible doesn't say that it supports white people. But it does revolve around a Patriarchial society with the male as the person in power.

Crap. This went thread got big fast. I would just like to say Marriage in and of itself is a biblical concept, and the gov't needs to make its own form of marriage. That way, (i think it was Pollen who said it) people who want to be married but not have a religious marriage can just go to any gov't building and go 'hey, i wanna marry this person.' No questions asked. As for the crazy religious zealots who are uber antigaymarriage... if you want a religious marriage, do it through your church. There is no reason our government should even recognize such a religious act as marriage in the first place.

Marriage is not a Biblical concept. A religious and legal monogomous relationship has been recognized by theocratic governments and ethnic groups of people that are more ancient than the Bible and even the Jewish people who wrote the Bible. If this about the word 'marriage,' then it isn't a biblical word. It's 14th century Anglo-French in origin. Stupid semantics.

[Iku]

yeah the old testament was written by jews but that still doesnt mean christians dont believe it, otherwise they'd just include it in the apocraypha rather then the main book, the fact its still in the bible means they've got to believe that just as much as anything in the new testament.
for all intents and purposes romans are caucasion which grealy affected the bible because as seen in daniel the idea of using the bible for propaganda came in and the bible was altered for people's needs and this was probably the point where the hatred of black people came in but to be honest the old testament is constently raving on about how the jews are a superior race and the inferiorority of all the others and how only the jewish race will be saved in on judgement day some parts admittedly only say that they are favoured above all others, seems a little race so maybe the white comment was a little off but i still stand by the fact that the bible is rather racist

[Eroschilles]

Most religious text say that the particular people of that faith are superior to others.

I think that hatred of black people, or any group of people by a different group of people, comes from human beings being distrustful of those who are different than them. That's not really a limitation set by the Bible, or any other religious text. The Bible even promotes loving you neighbour. So, I think racism comes from stupid people, not ancient religious texts.

But that's not to say that the Bible doesn't have faults when it comes to civil rights. Bible says that slaves should be obedient, women subservient, and children the property of their parents. Those are just a few of the clearly outdated policies of the Bible. That's why there is a separation of Church and State, or at least supposed to be.

[Pollensalta]

Crap. This went thread got big fast. I would just like to say Marriage in and of itself is a biblical concept, and the gov't needs to make its own form of marriage. That way, (i think it was Pollen who said it) people who want to be married but not have a religious marriage can just go to any gov't building and go 'hey, i wanna marry this person.' No questions asked. As for the crazy religious zealots who are uber antigaymarriage... if you want a religious marriage, do it through your church. There is no reason our government should even recognize such a religious act as marriage in the first place.

What do you mean? The government DOES have its own form of marriage. My best friend just got married under the state of Florida two days ago. You DON'T have to do it religiously.

*puzzled*

And you know, there ARE gay Christians out there. I feel bad for them.

[Chris_Lightfellow]

There's a good quote from the show The West Wing that really shows how using the Bible as a way to denounce homosexuality is stupid.

Bartlet: I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Josiah Bartlet: Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Josiah Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

[Oppenheimer]

There's nothing ironic about Proposition 8.

Regardless of what you say, I'm standing by the idea that it is ironic that the gay mecca of America, San Francisco, is having anti-gay legislation proposed.

And, there's a good chance it'll pass (making same-sex marriage illegal).

It has a good chance eh? I wasn't aware of that. Consider my general opinion of the United States taken down a notch then. Glad I'm in Canada, where gay marriage passed the house in not one, but two votes, including one where the MPs were not bound by party lines.

[Crowley Reborn]

Sorry, I left that a little ambiguous. The state needs its own strictly civil union, leaving marriage to the churches. That way, everyone who 'marries' under the state gets the same benefits, and all those bitching about queers getting married can feel safe in their antihomo no gay marriage churches. Therefore, everyone's happy. With the government that is. The churches can still deny a marriage.
Does that make more sense?

And the other thing is that i'm sick of people bitching about how they're scared gay marriage will be taught to their children via public schools. What a load of stupid crap!!! They've never even mentioned traditional marriage in school, so why the hell would they start teaching anything about marriage now?

EDIT: that wasnt to say dont teach gay marriage, just that i highly doubt schools are going to say anything about it to the students.

[Jowy Atreides]

I understand that, Opp. It's still just one city, and isn't even the largest in California.

I suspect that the proposition will fail, but it'll be extremely close. The polls say different things every day on 8.

As for marriage, it's existed before recorded history, so it's not a purely religious thing. It's something I've heard a million times, but that doesn't make it true. The term "marriage" ought to be used for homosexuals in the same way it's used for heterosexuals.

[Kagiya]

It looks like prop 8 has gone through. I'm sad. ; ; Maybe it will get overturned.

[Iku]

it went through!? wooh must say i did not see that coming.....

[RangerDeon]

I can't get married? *weeps*

Anyway. . .I think it's stupid. People will never get over their fear of something different than them or their stupid stereotypes. . .

[Jowy Atreides]

There are more ballots to be counted, and even if it still passes, there are other legal hurdles to be jumped over before same-sex marriage is made illegal in California. I predict that same-sex marriage, if made illegal once more, will eventually be made legal again, and will stay that way. The other possibility is that same-sex marriage remains legal, which is entirely possible.