Prop 8... sigh

A forum for non-Suikoden related topics.
User avatar
Crowley Reborn
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:05 am

Prop 8... sigh

Postby Crowley Reborn » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:34 am

What a change for btw

I was, near the beginning of this whole political campaign, for Prop 8 (this is a Ca thing, i think, so if you must know it has to do with unlegalizing gay marriage. those in favor of prop eight dont want gays to marry). However, as this campaign rages on and people get consumed by narrowminded bigotry, i've actually come to be antiprop 8. I'm not saying that gays should marry, as the Bible does say that it's a sin, but... our gov't is not supposed to discriminate, and I could care less who sodomizes whom. But these religious bigots post things about homosexuals being abominations, and they're right along with those committing pedophilia and beastiality. I for one am disturbed by how utterly stupid these people are. So you think homosexuality is a sin? fine. but dont go hating people and calling them abominations. thats just wrong. Separation of church and state, people.
churches need to decide who to marry, and the gov't needs to institute a strict civil union between human and human. our gov't is in no way bound to the bible.
on that note, how dare the churches bring judgment upon homosexuals. it's no worse of a sin than lying, or stealing, or adultery. in a way it is adultery, if you look at christianity. but, you dont see people getting condemned and excommunicated for cheating... so c'mon. dont be so narrowminded.

anyways. feel free to rant here. i've said all i feel like saying right now. other than i am thoroughly disgusted and its these closed minded bigots that give republicans a bad name
Check out The Old Kingdom Ardänia series, starting with the first book, Vermillion Skies
http://www.facebook.com/prbison
http://www.facebook.com/vermillionskies1

User avatar
Eroschilles
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:45 am
Location: Here, there, everywhere.

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Eroschilles » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:56 pm

Not that I live in California or anything, but I'm going to address your post.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that gay marriage is a sin, but I know what you mean how in the old testament it says that man shouldn't lie with man or with beast. However, it also says that you cannot eat animals with cloven hooves, including deer and pigs, or eat shellfish (to the Old Testament, that's any sea organism that has a shell on it, ie, crabs, clams, and oysters). So, perspectively, those are all on the same level of sinfulness (I know I'm going to catch flak for that statement).

The more dire of sins to break are the ten comandments, like adultery, to which you compared homosexuality. Adultery is where one has sexual relations with another individual, where one of those is married to a different person. You're thinking of fornication, non-marital sex.

I personally don't see how anyone can say that gay marriage, or civic union, or whatever people think is politically correct to call it, is a violation of the sacred marriage between man and woman. At least not in this society, with divorce and annullment and any number of violation of marriage according to the Bible.

And Republicans aren't the only bigots. There are bigots of all variety from all political parties. I think it's just people who don't understand things completely and they have that human reaction of fear and resentment towards it. It only angers me sometimes nowadays. But then again, I feel like I'm always angry nowadays.

KFCrispy
Global Admin
Posts: 6039
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:53 pm

f*ck the Bible, the government is not supposed to follow the Bible, this is LAW. the type of marriage the government talks about should not be tied to any religion, is it simply a status used for 2 adults who decided to become a family (obviously my definition is not very accurate but i don't want to discuss the actual definition besides the fact that it shouldn't be associated with religion).

if religious people are so stubborn then just coin a new word: MAIRRAGE. it will defined by law as "marriage" but for the same gender instead of between a man and woman. conveniently the pronunciation will be the same as "marriage".

one of the main problems in general with our government is how it's used in an attempt to uphold religion and morals. we need a PRACTICAL government, one that accommodates ALL of its citizens in a way that each person has the right to pursuit happiness, etc.

User avatar
Runemaster
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 8:18 am
Location: Pilipinas
Contact:

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Runemaster » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:59 pm

what?? you can say THAT to the Bible?? whoah.
I will bring Lordlake's fate... to the entire Suikoden World! weeeeeeh!

User avatar
patapi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:55 pm

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby patapi » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:12 am

KFCrispy wrote:f*ck the Bible, the government is not supposed to follow the Bible, this is LAW. the type of marriage the government talks about should not be tied to any religion, is it simply a status used for 2 adults who decided to become a family (obviously my definition is not very accurate but i don't want to discuss the actual definition besides the fact that it shouldn't be associated with religion).

if religious people are so stubborn then just coin a new word: MAIRRAGE. it will defined by law as "marriage" but for the same gender instead of between a man and woman. conveniently the pronunciation will be the same as "marriage".

one of the main problems in general with our government is how it's used in an attempt to uphold religion and morals. we need a PRACTICAL government, one that accommodates ALL of its citizens in a way that each person has the right to pursuit happiness, etc.

This.

Don't legal typically narrow down the definition of lay terms and words anyway, that may differ from their common use anyway?

Unless, of course, the place decides against being secular and thus not be separate from their chosen religion.

User avatar
Pollensalta
Posts: 819
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:07 pm
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Pollensalta » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:43 am

Prop 8 is sick and it saddens me to no end. I can't believe the ignorance of some of the people out there. They say you can tell the character of a country by how it treats its minorities, and obviously we are doing a very poor job of allowing equal civil rights to everyone. Some people are just blinded by their hatred, intolerance, and ignorance.

When (if) I get married, it will be under the state of Florida (or whatever state I live in at that point.) Not some religion. I don't need it, won't need it to be married. And neither does anyone else. Nobody needs the approval of a religion in order to love each other fully and to deserve the same rights as anyone else out there. It is a civil right.

This is just as bad as when blacks and whites couldn't marry.
Purr.

Oppenheimer
Global Admin
Posts: 2853
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: ON, Canada

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Oppenheimer » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:09 pm

Pollensalta wrote:They say you can tell the character of a country by how it treats its minorities,
Ironically, gay people are barely even a minority in California.

But that's what you get when you elect a movie star as your senator.

User avatar
Eroschilles
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:45 am
Location: Here, there, everywhere.

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Eroschilles » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:50 pm

And to expound all this...

It's not like monogomous gay couples are not already living together for long periods of, decades plus and all. Which is what marriage is and all. Solemn vow to remain faithful to each other. However, they are not being given the right to have that commitment recognized by the governemt, and thus being prevented from getting legal and tax benefits from it like all other marriages.

I can recall laws exsisting for common law couples, and how if you lived in the same domicile with a person of the opposite gender who was not of your family already would be consindered your husband or wife after a certain number of years of co-residence. I believe it was commonly seven years it most states.

Give those couples who want to get those perks said perks. A man and woman can go down to the courthouse, get a marriage liscence, and be married by a justice of the peace. No religion or god(s) involved, and it is still recognized as a 'sacred' and legal marriage. I'm tired of the Constitution being tatered because people want to say, "That's not what the forefathers really meant when they wrote that." Two hundred year old document is a foundation. People of this country need to realize the times we live in, and grow tolerant of people exercising their basic Civil Rights.

The purpose of seperation of Church and State means laws cannot be created based on a person's religious beliefs. I've heard people explain that what the forefathers meant was that it's just to prevent a State-sponsered religion, like Church of England or something. I think it's to prevent people from executed each other for being witches. Laws based on religion preferences are ridiculous.

In summation, I agree with general above posted concensus...

Jowy Atreides
Posts: 2667
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:31 pm
Location: Shenzhen, China
Contact:

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Jowy Atreides » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:45 pm

Oppenheimer wrote:Ironically, gay people are barely even a minority in California.

But that's what you get when you elect a movie star as your senator.


Gays are a minority in every state. And, as far as I'm aware, California's senators aren't actors; unless you're referring to Arnold, who is the governor.

Concerning the topic at hand, Californians should vote down on Prop 8.

Oppenheimer
Global Admin
Posts: 2853
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: ON, Canada

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Oppenheimer » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:43 am

Jowy Atreides wrote:Gays are a minority in every state. And, as far as I'm aware, California's senators aren't actors; unless you're referring to Arnold, who is the governor.

I said "are barely a minority". I didn't say they weren't. My point is that there are a lot more gay people in California than most other communities in the world. And yes I meant govenor.

darkphoenix
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:39 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Contact:

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby darkphoenix » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:20 pm

I just love Oppenheimer's sarcastic replies.

To me, I really dont see how it's anyone's business whom you marry, whether it's a male or female, it sounds just like marriage would be an issue depending on the colour of your partner's skin.
I'm not a big fan into marriage myself, but it's before anything else the two persons who decide to unite's business, and basically no one else's.
Finally, religion interfering with politics is hardly avoidable. I know it's a different topic, but in Ireland, abortion is still illegal and a lot of people would not support the right to choose. Ireland is definitely a very Catholic country though technically the government is not implied with any religion, and it's absurd as Irish girls fly to the UK to get abortion.
Just like gay couples in Europe go to Belgium, the UK, Spain to get married if it's not legal in their original country.

So, really, f**k the Bible and the law, do it your way.

Jowy Atreides
Posts: 2667
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:31 pm
Location: Shenzhen, China
Contact:

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Jowy Atreides » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:24 pm

It seems to imply that gay people are almost a majority -- like 49% of the population or something. I don't think there are any numbers, at least state-by-state, but red states like Texas also have large gay populations, in certain areas. And Texas is one of the most regressive states when it comes to sexual orientation.

Oppenheimer
Global Admin
Posts: 2853
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: ON, Canada

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Oppenheimer » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:07 pm

If you're gay and your top priority is to be around other gay people in the united states you move to San Francisco, CA. Just like, if you're gay and your top priority is to be around other gay people in Ontario you go to Toronto's gay area.

The ratio of gay people to straight people is vastly different in these two places than in places like Texas. Not because there are more gay people born there, but because it is a place that gay people gravitate to if they are feeling overwhelmed by straight society within their own towns.

Hence, as I said, it is ironic that Prop 8 exists as there are more gay voters in CA than in other states in America.

The position of gay community hubs throughout the world is common knowledge to most gay people. But, if you can find a government census that shows that Texas has more gay people in it than California then I stand corrected.

Kagiya
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:01 pm

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Kagiya » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:29 pm

The prop 8 supporters have been pretty bold. I was talking to my sister the other day, she lives in SF, and they were out there supporting it. They collected some honks of support and some waving of middle fingers. As for myself, this kinda stuff makes me rather angry. This isn't a theocracy. >.> It encourages bigotry.
If they are so worried about the preservation of 'tradition' marriage perhaps they should try to do somebody about how high divorce rates are at or those of us that co-habituate with our significant other without getting marriage.

Jowy Atreides
Posts: 2667
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:31 pm
Location: Shenzhen, China
Contact:

Re: Prop 8... sigh

Postby Jowy Atreides » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:49 pm

There's nothing ironic about Proposition 8. Propositions don't just fall out of the sky; the various anti-gay groups had to get a certain number of signatures, they had to submit their petition, and now it's showing up on the ballot. And, there's a good chance it'll pass (making same-sex marriage illegal). California still has huge communities of evangelicals, and, because of immigration, large communities of traditional Catholics too. Gays are a small voting bloc, at least when considering the state as a whole. There may be "more gay voters", but that's not saying much when gays are a minority anyway.


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest