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Hypothesis for, and analyses of, the various locations and backstory of the Suikoden world.
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Pollensalta
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Postby Pollensalta » Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:20 am

Yeah, it is swee-koh-den.

End of story.
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CJack14dt
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Actually

Postby CJack14dt » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:48 pm

Pollen the guys before were spot on with Su-ee-koh-den. The "swee" sound isn't actually correct because in Japanese in this case the u (ok i typed the letter here but it keeps writing you when i submit...) has a distinct sound. When we use the word for Wednesday, we say su-ee-yoh-bi not swee-yoh-bi. Your mouth almost makes the motion for a "w" sound but doesn't completely follow through with it.
Last edited by CJack14dt on Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vextor
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Postby Vextor » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:52 pm

Oops, the URL is messed up at suikox.

Here's a direct link to the .wav file of how a Japanese person pronounces Suikoden.

http://www.suikox.com/sound/suiko.wav
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Postby oneWinged » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:05 pm

I'd say it's up to interpretation. While Soo-ee-ko-den (ala Psycho Mantis in MGS) is the official, correct way, I'll argue that there is no actual wrong way to pronounce it.

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Postby Iris » Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:37 pm

Shui Hu Zhan is pronounced "Swee hu zan," so logically Suikoden would be pronounced "Sweekoden", similar to how "Xīyóu Jì", another of the Four Great Chinese Novels became "Saiyuki".

So, I guess "Sweekoden" would be correct, but I'm not an expert on Chinese-to-Japanese phonetics.

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Postby Vextor » Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:37 pm

Iris wrote:Shui Hu Zhan is pronounced "Swee hu zan," so logically Suikoden would be pronounced "Sweekoden", similar to how "Xīyóyou Jì", another of the Four Great Chinese Novels became "Saiyuki".

So, I guess "Sweekoden" would be correct, but I'm not an expert on Chinese-to-Japanese phonetics.


The problem (not to sound like an ass) is that Japanese and Chinese are very different languages--phonetics are totally different. It's sort of like how "Jesus" is spoken more as "Hesus" in Spanish.

I'm a fluent Japanese speaker, but if I tried to pronounce a Chinese word, it'd make no sense to a Chinese person (and vice-versa).
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Postby Iris » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:17 pm

True, but, at least in the cases I brought up, they are somewhat similar and consistant. Yes, if you did say "I like The Water Margin" in Japanese, a Chinese person probably won't know what you're even talking about, but in the basics they remain similar enough, I think.

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Postby Sniper_Zegai » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:31 pm

Its purnounced sue-eeh-koh-den and this was confirmed by a very reliable source, Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear Solid. I trust the guys at konami to get it right after all.
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Postby Pollensalta » Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:34 pm

Unless I have hearing problems, he's saying "sweekoden" in the wav file.
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Postby Vextor » Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:45 pm

Iris wrote:True, but, at least in the cases I brought up, they are somewhat similar and consistant. Yes, if you did say "I like The Water Margin" in Japanese, a Chinese person probably won't know what you're even talking about, but in the basics they remain similar enough, I think.


It may "appear" similar, but they really are quite different. For example, Shui Hu Zhuan can be pronounced in three syllables, but "Suikoden" would have to be pronounced in five syllables in Japanese. The sounds are broken as Su-i-ko-de-n. The last two sounds will appear to most people as being one (the "de-n" sound), but there is indeed a small pause between the sounds.

Also, "The Water Margin" is indeed "Suikoden" in Japanese, so if a Japanese person says "The Water Margin," they'd be saying "Su-i-ko-de-n."

Maybe I'm being confusing here... let's see....

If you can see the characters... there's a small difference.
Suikoden (Japanese) is written as 水滸伝 
Shui Hu Zhuan (Chinese) is written as 水滸博

The meaning of these characters though, are the same.

水 means "water" in both Japanese and Chinese.
滸 means "border / margin" in both Japanese and Chinese.
伝 means "story / legend" in Japanese.
博 means "story / legend" in Chinese.

So yes, the meanings are similar. However, how words are pronounced is different. Especially in the case of Chinese, depending on whether you speak Cantonese, Mandarin, Twiwanese etc, you'll pronounce characters differently. The difference is so vast, that a Cantonese person won't understand what a Mandarin speaker would be saying.

Anyhow, here's a clip of how Shui Hu Zhuan is pronounced by a Mandarin speaker.

http://www.suikox.com/sound/shui.wav

Here's the Japanese clip I posted earlier:

http://www.suikox.com/sound/suiko.wav

You can hear that the two don't sound alike.

Basically, the way pinyin is read is different depending on the Chinese dialect, and Japanese isn't a dialect of Chinese or anything--it's a completely separate language that pronounces things very differently.

Sorry if I seem like I'm really TRYING to prove something, but I'm just trying to explain this as clearly as I can, because I don't want people to misunderstand that Japanese and Chinese are phonetically similar.
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Postby Iris » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:45 pm

Heheh. My friend Helen is Chinese, so I am quite aware that they're not phonetically similar. I was just saying that since it comes from Shui Hu Zhan, it would be logical to trace its phonetic origins back to Chinese, having a similar pronounciation while being distinctly different (Shweehuzhan=/=Sweekoden, Zhaiyujhi (I think)=/=Saiyuki, et cetera).

In the end though, I suppose that as far as "Suikoden" goes, "Sweekoden" and "Soo-wee-koh-den" are both correct- if you say "Sweekoden" slowly, it's "Soowie-koh-den".

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Postby Vextor » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:48 pm

Iris wrote:Heheh. My friend Helen is Chinese, so I am quite aware that they're not phonetically similar. I was just saying that since it comes from Shui Hu Zhan, it would be logical to trace its phonetic origins back to Chinese, having a similar pronounciation while being distinctly different (Shweehuzhan=/=Sweekoden, Zhaiyujhi (I think)=/=Saiyuki, et cetera).

In the end though, I suppose that as far as "Suikoden" goes, "Sweekoden" and "Soo-wee-koh-den" are both correct- if you say "Sweekoden" slowly, it's "Soowie-koh-den".


Okay, now I understand what you mean. Indeed, the origin of the word would be the same. And the native pronounciation would likely be hard to really distinguish with a non-native ear. For me, the above Japanese clip doesn't sound like "Sweekoden" because I hear the pauses between each syllable (I basically don't hear a "Swee" sound at all, just "Sui", but to non-natives, it'll probably sound like the sounds are all connected. It's one of those things... but well, I understand what you're saying. Sorry for being so picky, sometimes I get a little bit carried away.
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CJack14dt
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the w

Postby CJack14dt » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:29 am

Pollen, I think you have to be completely fluent or a native to get the nuance and subtle jaw movement that differentiates the swee from the su-ee-koh-den sound that it is. I know exactly what you're talking about in hearing a "w" to it and its VERY close to it but if you say it correctly your lower jaw will move a bit differently than it does when you make a real "swee" sound. Its a hard thing to teach and in fact get used to (I used to teach Japanese to English speakers and English to Japanese speakers). Its kind of like getting english speakers to correctly make the r/l sound.

P.S. Does anyone know how to make this site stop autocorrecting what I write??? I can't type letters that are also words, it keeps auto changing them when I submit!!!!!

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Postby Westley » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:45 am

Hi, this is my first post, interesting thread here. Some of the discussion are quite deep. Well, personally i've always called it sway-ko-dern without thinking twice about it.

But my money would be on sue-we-ko-dern. Sue and we said together quickly. The Japanese pronounciation for water is mizu, but its hard to relate mizu with sui of suikoden. Maybe they have Sui as a second pronounciation for water?

So, my guess is they just shorten mizu to zui and it got reflected in english as Sui. Not Japanese myself pardon any mistakes. A real Japanese citizen should be able to give us the right answer and explanation. Thanks for reading.
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kharaa
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Postby kharaa » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:28 pm

Okay, lets bring something to this topic, a question!

how do you say each of the heros names? I say them in this order

Tir Mcdohl (Tear Mic Dohl)
Riou (ree-ow)
Chris Hugo and Geddoe are pretty simple with Geddoe being like Ghetto with a d right?

Lazlo "Laz-low"

Freyjadour (Fray-ya-door)

Are they correct?


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