Harmonia is not as powerful as well all believe

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Postby xXSqualleoNXx » Sun May 21, 2006 8:26 am

Either way, Harmonia's composition is not that of a unified nation. Nations like Falena and Toran have unified systems, but Harmonia is composed of so many countries, many of them forcibly taken, that I'm sure that, while on the surface they seem invulnerable, they are actually quite fragile. Every time a Civil War strikes they lost yet another chunk of land, and now that Sasarai, one of the leaders of Harmonia's Main Army, and bearer of the True Earth Rune is going through a crisis of conciusness. it is only a matter of time before yet another Civil War goes down.
Hmm...

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Postby deakka » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:43 pm

As far as Harmonia goes, they are the only nation that has active control over 2 (or more, depending on if Konami decides to toss them a couple more in sequels) True Runes. The grasslands have the True Fire rune (Hugo), the Zexen confederacy has the True Water rune, Falena has the Sun rune etc. Several nations even fail to possess true runes, since the bearers of them (Jowy and Riou, Tir, Lazlo) all left on their own after their respective events in history. And on top of that, many True Rune bearers (Viktor with the Zodiac sword passed onto Edge, Sierra) claim ties to no nation.

It appears that based on rune strength alone, Harmonia still trumps all other nations based on the fact that it does have 2 confirmed True Runes. As far as how the Circle rune would effect a conflict is unknown, but it has to be said that Harmonia is the only nation to exist in the world of Suikoden throughout the games. Every other nation has been torn apart and rebuilt thru (civil)wars/conflicts, often times changing the political structure of those said nations.

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Postby patapi » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:56 pm

deakka wrote:As far as Harmonia goes, they are the only nation that has active control over 2 (or more, depending on if Konami decides to toss them a couple more in sequels) True Runes. The grasslands have the True Fire rune (Hugo), the Zexen confederacy has the True Water rune, Falena has the Sun rune etc. Several nations even fail to possess true runes, since the bearers of them (Jowy and Riou, Tir, Lazlo) all left on their own after their respective events in history. And on top of that, many True Rune bearers (Viktor with the Zodiac sword passed onto Edge, Sierra) claim ties to no nation.

Grasslands and Zexen do NOT control their true runes. Those runes have no impact on the sovereignty of those nations. The same goes to City-States of Jowston/Dunan Republic and the Island Nations, who only relied on the true rune used during their respective wars.

Control, however, would be applicable in the case of Scarlet Moon Empire or Highland Kingdom, where the runes are centre to their monarchies. Of course, those runes are MIA now with the dissolution of those nations.

Queendom of Falena still has theirs (any detail would be spoiler). And Harmonia has a few, true to their role as the true rune collector. Circle Rune, True Earth Rune; to name a few. Keep in mind that they do NOT have control over True Lightning Rune though, despite Geddoe serving as part of the Southern Frontier Defence Force.

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Postby Felenan Prince » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:52 pm

Personally i think it wouldn't take much to make the 3rd class citizens rebel against harmonia. If Le Beuqe was any indication all it might take to make them rebel might be a promise of freedom and equality from other foreign countries

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Postby patapi » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:49 pm

If that is so, then it would make little why they would wait for more than 400+ years since its founding to rebel. If it doesn't take much, Harmonia should've crumbled at least a few tens of decades ago.

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Postby Felenan Prince » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:09 pm

well for one thing no nation thus far has bee stupid er...brave enough to try to invade harmonia and try and utilize the tactic of having its 3rd class rebel.

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Postby Jowy Atreides » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:33 pm

They have, however, used Harmonia's internal problems to their advantage.
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby SpecialNewb » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:05 am

xXSqualleoNXx wrote:Either way, Harmonia's composition is not that of a unified nation. Nations like Falena and Toran have unified systems, but Harmonia is composed of so many countries, many of them forcibly taken, that I'm sure that, while on the surface they seem invulnerable, they are actually quite fragile. Every time a Civil War strikes they lost yet another chunk of land, and now that Sasarai, one of the leaders of Harmonia's Main Army, and bearer of the True Earth Rune is going through a crisis of conciusness. it is only a matter of time before yet another Civil War goes down.

"We have only to kick in the door and the entire rotten structure will come crashing down!" eh?

There's just too much we don't know about Harmonia and its leadership to make much more than a guess at their power. Who knows if they got a capable leader for once what they could or would do. If Sasarai does eventually start a civil war and he wins, and he makes things easier on the 3rd Classers... well then either they'll all rebel, or they'll make a unified Harmonia stronger.

Personally I've always imagined a kind of WWII style campaign against Harmonia except it's Harmonia that has to fight a two front war, one against the "Suikoden Alliance" (shorthand for just about all the countries in the Suikoden world we know) and some unknown major empire that while smaller than Harmonia, would be too costly to conquer. But that's just my own imaginings so they're worth about as much as fluff.

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Postby KFCrispy » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:34 am

i don't see why anybody's gonna go "liberate" Harmonia; Harmonia's internal conflicts, however, can pose a threat. the key idea is that Harmonia *was* a great nation. it is still greatly feared, strong, influential, and is always looking to expand. but that is partially due to the loss of territory--if they managed to quell all its rebellions and keep its lands, other countries would have likely invaded it, incited surviving rebel factions, etc etc, and the outcome would have led to the same/similar result.

i'm curious--did Harmonia return that Grassland village or what?

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Postby future_suikoden_writer » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:37 am

its true that harmonia is weakening..

the first reason is Hikusaak is stated that he/she is missing,

then the howling voice guild is not used for war,its just like nether gate that needs to kill people who oppose the senators/nobles,

then julian silverberg and kranach rugner start a rebellion w/o any bloodshed then harmonia give them a land..

harmonian citizens have lack of unity because of the caste system,even all of harmonian citizens have true rune and have 99999million soldiers,it is no match to a country with 1million soldiers and having a unity w/ each other..

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Re: Harmonia is not as powerful as well all believe

Postby Jam-Jul Lison » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:08 am

I know this is an old thread, but after reading through it, I felt like I needed to comment on it.

I don't think we will see Harmonia taken down in any of the recent games. Though I do expect their involvement in them to increase. I think in the final game though, it will revolve heavily around Harmonia. As we can tell, Harmonia seems to be good at making enemies and seem to be weakened the most at their southern borders. Though I am sure they got something there to protect themselves though. However things will not break out for them from the outside. They will probably begin from the inside. Let's review possible members of Harmonia that could possibly begin to start or become involved in a rebellion.

Sasarai: After the events of the Second Fire Bringer War, he probably has had of personal issues that he has been trying to deal with. This could lead him to question his superiors and might cause him to fall out of favor with them. In that time he then begins to see Hikusaak for what he really is and realizes that Luc was telling him the truth about their origins. Using his power within Harmonia, he begins to secretly feed information, supplies and weapons to a rebellion army that has formed.

Clive: Clive fought in both the Gate Rune War and the Dunan Unification War. His reason of course was to find and kill Elza which he did in the Dunan Unification War. However after the war, when he eventually returned to Harmonia, he might have began to suspect something about that whole Elza situation was not quite right. So he begins looking into it and eventually discovers the truth. He is then left with the choice of ignoring the truth and not trying to do anything about it or confront his superiors. His thoughts then drift back to the Gate Rune War and the Dunan Unification War. He remember seeing people fighting for what they thought was right. He then comes to the decision to confront his superiors. His superiors however apon being confronted, decide that Clive is now a threat and try to have him killed. Clive however manages to barely escape and ended up joining the rebellion army that has recently formed.

Nash: He is definatly a while card in this one. On one hand he works for Harmonia, on the other he is assumed to be married to Sierra. Which I am assuming is so. In which case if she decided to aid the rebellion, chances are he would have to as well. That or feel her wrath. I think what he chooses would be obvious. lol.

Sierra: If she is indeed married to Nash, she might be living in Harmonia at the time. As a the bearer of the Blue Moon Rune, she could possibly have been shown a vision from her Rune of what is to come if Hikusaak. Knowing that she could not stop him alone, she decided to join the rebellion army and forces Nash to join as well.

Geddoe: As we know, he is probably still working for the HSFDF at this point. However due to the events of the Second Fire Bringer War, Hikusaak now knows that Geddoe has the True Lightning Rune. He forms a plan to trap Geddoe and seize his rune using the power of the Circle Rune and capture it, just like Luc did before. However Geddoe, perhaps being shown a vision of what is to come by his rune, comes prepared. A battle occurs and the battle results in a small part of Harmonia being desimated. It also results in the death of Geddoe's entire unit. Both Geddoe and Hikusaak are no where to be found. Later on though, Hikusaak reappears wielding not only his rune, but the True Lightning Rune as well, much as Luc did before in the past. However Geddoe remains missing until the end of the game when he joins up with the rebellion. The effects of the True Lightning Rune on him however begin to fade. Such as he looks a lot older and is beginning to physicly weaken.

Ok those would probably be the only reoccuring stars of destiny. Now on to my idea for the hero.

Hero: Born into Harmonian 3rd Citizenship, She has not led a good life. Yet it was a happy one, until that fateful day when an explosion could be heard all over Harmonia. It was the sound of the battle of the True Lightning Rune vs The Circle Rune. Her home was near the the outer edge of where the devistation ended up occuring. As the explosion occured, the True Wind Rune appears before her and chooses her as it's next bearer. The True Wind Rune then shields her from the explosion. Her family and all her friends though were killed. At the time when she get's the rune she does not know what is going on, nor does she have any real control over it. Now as to how she gets involved in the rebellion, I am still working on that, it is not an easy thing to work in but it does have possibilities.

Now as for the other true rune bearers. It is possible they are alerted to what occurred in Harmonie through their true runes. Leknaat then appears before each of the good ones and informs them of what has happened. Realizing that Harmonia needs to be stopped, they make their way towards Harmonia. While making their seperate ways there, some such as Tir, Riou and Jowy decide to try to gather forces from their respective countries that they helped to establish, in order take on Harmonia.

There are still some wild cards though. First we have unnamed true runes but it is best not to get into that so I will focus on the ones we know.

Beast Rune: Currently it's location is unknown. It is possible this could end up in the hands of a good guy or a bad guy.

Rune of Change: I have a feeling the Sindar, or at least this rune, will make a return in the final game. What side he or she will be on is really hard to say though.

Yuber: While we can guess that he will probably be on Harmonia's side, there is always a chance that he will turn on them.

Windy: Yet another Wild Card. It is possible that she might use this chance to try to steal another true rune for herself. Her and her half of the gate rune are sure to make a return eventually and i think it will be in the final game.

Barbarossa: We can not count him and his Sovereign Rune out either. Though I see his return as a good guy rather then a bad guy. Or perhaps he is still Windy's b*tch. lol


Needless the final suikoden game should be the best. I just hope the series last long enough to make it to that one. In the end though, I see Harmonia getting crushed, once and for all. lol

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Re: Harmonia is not as powerful as well all believe

Postby Bright » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:53 am

Just to step in on Harmonia's side briefly.

It's all well and good to point out the losses that Harmonia has had in recent suikoden history, but in all fairness, consider the the situations they have had to face. The suikoden games are not about any old rebellion or political uprising. They aren't called stars of destiny for nothing. The success of the armies fighing Harmonia are quite amazing, if you consider the allies, champions, equipment and headquarters required to fend of Harmonia, not to mention always getting the aid of a superb strategist (and helpers).

Just because some previously conquered nation tries to rise up against Harmonia doesn't mean they will come crashing down with all their might to quell the rebellion. They'll send as few troops as necassary, one or two generals, and whoever their closest allies are in the front line. I think in most of the situations mentioned they weren't expecting the level of resistance that was given.

Considering a few provinces, all fuelled by the will of at least one true rune and destiny have managed to slip through some half-hearted attempts to keep them by Harmonia is no reason to think the whole nation is about to crumble.

Of course internal struggles weakens the nation, but it has survived a very long time under the same system, and I don't think we've even had a proper taste of the true military power that Harmonia has to offer yet.

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Re: Harmonia is not as powerful as well all believe

Postby Jam-Jul Lison » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:16 am

What I was referring to in my post was probably will occur in the very last Suikoden game. The over fall of Harmonia will be from several factors.

1. Harmonia is led by a leader who's true goal is to collect all the true runes. This means once they are all discovered, he probably have at least one himself, if not more. He could very well have several by this point. The rest by this point would likely have bearers of their own and chances are he will know who they are. I am guessing Harminian spies have kept tabs on all those who aquired a true rune in since Harmonia has been in power. Chances are. Chances are, like Wendy, Hikusaak will use as much of the Harmonian army as he has to, to aquire these true ruins. This in the end would leave Harmonia in ruin, just like what happened with the Scarlet Moon Empire.

2. Internal struggles. Rebellion always breaks out in these situations from time to time. Harmonia has managed to prevent this from getting out of control. However as Hikusaak begins to focus more on the runes, he begins to focus less on what is going on within the Kingdom itself. This could allow for another group of 108 stars of destiny to come together and begin to destroy Harmonia from the inside. As is with most Suikoden games, the Leader typicly has a true rune of their own. Because the True Wind Rune is currently missing and I don't expect to see it again, until the final game, I could see it making a return in this game. Will all the true runes known at this point, it would only make sense. There is also the chance of other true rune bearers being stars of destiny again do to their connection to Harmonis. Aka Geddoe and Sierra. There is also the chance of Sasarai eventually turning on Hikusaak and aiding them.

3. Considering all events in the Suikoden world seem to be leading end of the world type scenario, it makes that all the True Runes would eventually be gathered into this area. No doubt Leknaat would have something to do with getting them gathered. True Rune Bearers such as Riou, Jowy and Tir would likely realize that in order to win, they would need help. Riou and Jowy convince Jowston to aid them, meanwhile Tir, the rightful heir to the throne of the Toran Republic, would likely lead their army into battle. Their top strategist them come up with the idea to contact many of the countries that share borders with Harmonia, to aid them an a massive assault against most of Harmonias borders.

4. Viki. She is likely of course in the rebellion army. which is not a surprise. The rebellion armies strategist realizes they need help. So he has Vicky teleport to one of the nearby countries for help. Vicky ends up in Jowston and Shu gets an idea. While the armies are clashing with the borders of Harmonia, Vicky teleports Riou, Jowy, Nanami (she would refuse to be left behind), Tir, Hugo and Chris into Harmonia itself to aid the Rebellion. Hey look 6 party members. lol

5. Milia: With her True Dragon rune and her trust dragon Thrash, she leads the Dragon Knights on an arial assault on Crystal Valley.

In the final battle, Harmonian troops are being stretched thin. While trying to defend their borders, they are also dealing with an assault by now rather large sized Rebellion Army which is invading Crystal Valley. If that was not bad enough, they have to deal with the arial assault from the dragon knights. Meanwhile other true rune bearers who are heading to Harmonia would likely run into Harmonian troops along the way and wipe out any troops that tries to stop them.

The real question though is, which side will Yuber, Wendy and Barbarossa be fighting on and will who's side will the Leader of the Sindar be on?

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Re: Harmonia is not as powerful as well all believe

Postby genso19 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:02 am

elo guyz,

everything here is based on my opinion, hehe

1. We all know that if you had the best ending in Suiko 2, you will see Riou and friends visiting Jilia and Pilika, and it is said that Jowy arranged a house for the 2 in Harmonia under a different name ( well, to cut the Blight name), so if a rebellion arises in Harmonia, most likely Riou and friends will come to rescue, but also, Bright Shield rune and Black Sword are both not True Runes, but only part of the Rune of beginning, so I doubt that they will become immortal, most likely one of them will die, or hand over their rune to form the rune of beginning

2. As we know, Georg, Lyon and Prince traveled together, and you will find Georg in both Suiko 1 and 2 (though he did not appear in 1, he's still one of the generals) so I think that Lyon and Prince are around or near that area, and most likely they would join the rebellion if it happens

3. Yuber, Windy and Barbarossa would maybe be forced to side with the rebels, since Hikusaak really wants to collect the True Runes, he/she would rather steal the true runes from them, initially removing them from his/her disposal

4. Leknaat and Windy may join forces to form Gate Rune


My speculation:

Since Viki can travel through time, in the final suikoden, she could have mastered her ability, and can most likely join all the Stars of Destiny in all suikoden series in the final battle against Harmonia
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Re: Harmonia is not as powerful as well all believe

Postby Tenko5 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:44 am

I really don't think Viki will ever master her powers and if she did I don't see them breaking tradition and having more than 108 stars of destiny. If she did bring them all to the final battle you are atleast looking at 864 stars of destiny. This is assuming there are 8 games (the eighth being the final). Now why eight games? Well, with how many runes are revealed so far in 5 games (19 or 20 i forget) it would take between 7-8 to reveal the rest. Also, I think Yuber and Psmerga (sp?) will be heavily involved in the final game not to mention the cyndar (unless they are covered in an early game) and Jeanne (being as she is one of the most mysterious characters along with Yuber and Viki in the games). Yuber, I don't think would take a side either he would just be there to kill or stir up chaos or if he does i actually see him siding with Hikkusak to help kill those who humilated him (Other true rune bearers like Geedoe). Hikkusak would proabably start it attacking a true rune bearer and Leeknat would tell them they're all in trouble if they don't stop him. As, for Windy i don't see her forgiving Leeknat (not as kind hearted) but, not joining Harmonia's effort too and try her own plans. Well, time to actually answer the question of this thread.
I actually think Harmonia is as strong as the rumors (well maybe not cause fire spreads quickly). I see them as WW2 Germany they have a strong army they just suffer from incompent leaders and the other side as brillant strategists (many reasons why the Hero in each game is actually succesful). But if Albert is half the genius he appears to be he could very well be the strategist for Harmonia making strategy equal on both sides. With the final battle being fought between....(drum roll) I have no clue probably an unknow rune bearer from an unrealeased game or the ancient leader of Cyndar reappearing and him and Hikkusak in one final showdown (Idk why I like the idea) and you choose who wins affecting the ending along with the number of stars you have.
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