Harmonia is not as powerful as well all believe

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Felenan Prince
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Harmonia is not as powerful as well all believe

Postby Felenan Prince » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:04 pm

Ok we've all heard that harmonia is the largest,strongest, and has the largest military in all the suikoden world. However if we dig a little deeper we can see that is no longer capable(or at the very least will have a hard time) to try and outrightly conquer another nation. Here are my reasons:

One of harmonia goal is to collect true runes right? Well they no longer seem capable of obtaining true runes and in fact they are losing true runes left and right
1. They lost the soverign rune in the seccesion wars
2. They "gave" the beast rune to the Blight family
3. The true fire rune was stolen
4. The wind rune is now lost becouse of Luc

The next and best proof that harmonia is weakening is the fact that they have lost nearly all know wars they were involved in. These include:
1. Dunan Unification War
2. First Fire Bringer War
3. Seccession war(This being particularly important in that they lost there former capital becouse of this war)
4. Second Fire BRinger War
5. Higheast Rebellion(Another significant war becouse of how they were forced to withdraw from the conflict becouse of Shu creating internal discord in Harmonia. A sign that Harmonia is less than united.

Id like to hear your comments on this theory

Sage

Postby Sage » Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:58 am

I agree with you on all counts, I have always said Harmonia isn't as strong as people think. If you have one of the best tacticians on your side like Shu, and have an army willing to listen and learn. You could beat Harmonia on any battlefield. They may be one of the top super powers in the Suikoden world but, they do have contenders and people who could beat them.

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patapi
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Postby patapi » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:17 am

The Succession War have nothing to do with Harmonia losing their old capital. Gregminster had been the capital of the Scarlet Moon Empire long before that time.

On the subject of Fire Bringer War, technically Harmonia won. Towards the end of the game, their enemy was the Destroyers (who pulled a mini coup-de-tat before proceeding with taking control most of their troops). And having joined forces with the Fire Bringers albeit only briefly, we know they won that war.

With Harmonia's ruling system, it's no doubt their unity has always been in such a bad state. There is no way a nation which classifies its citizens into first, second and third class (besides other factors) would create such a harmonious community, no matter how the word "harmony" is the obvious basis of their name.

Nevertheless, to what extent was Shu's influence anyway? I doubt he did much beyond the basic minimum required to get their attention away from the High East province. In fact, it's probably just messing up with the southern border guards and nearby regional lords? Who knows.

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Postby Felenan Prince » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:12 am

First of during the seccesion wars greminster(Holy city of Rupanda) as i recall was harmonia's former capital.(Dont know if they moved there capital to crystal valley before or after the war) Which was take over Kranach Rugner during the seccession wars.(You may be confusing the Toran Liberation War with the Succession War) But the mere fact that they would lose such an important city is proof that It has weakened.

About the second fire bringer war true they did join the fire bringer but they were no longer representative of harmonia(i'll replay the game to sure about this). So it really wasn't a victory for harmonia. Besides even if it what you said was true harmonia did not gain anything from the conflict even though they had to expend all those resources. So can you really call them winners?

About Shu, you make harmonia sound even weaker. If Shu really did only the absolute minimum to get harmonia to focus away from Higheast how much more if Shu preformed to his fullest capacity? As for what you said about it being merely some border skirmish or just messing with land lords
that shows either the incompetence of Harmonia(they have millions of troops and yet they retreat becouse of some border skirmish?)or there fear that they could lose another part of there kingdom and how ill prepared they are for war.

On a further note harmonia would be hard pressed to try and invaded its neighbors(grassland with it true runes and Dunan with Shu)

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Postby patapi » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:53 am

Ah, looks like I mixed up the two Scarlet Moon wars. In fact, you were referring to the founding of the Empire, where Julian Silverberg made a name for his family by inciting a civil war within Harmonia. Point noted. Considering how large Harmonia's overseas territory is (taking into account how Dunan was left untouched when they conquered the lands up north), I wouldn't be surprised if they have had plans of moving their capital to Crystal Valley all along though.

Nevertheless...
About the second fire bringer war true they did join the fire bringer but they were no longer representative of harmonia(i'll replay the game to sure about this). So it really wasn't a victory for harmonia. Besides even if it what you said was true harmonia did not gain anything from the conflict even though they had to expend all those resources. So can you really call them winners?

The problem lies in the fact that they easily put too much trust in the newbie Masked Bishop. They definitely did not lose their resources here because they are weak in terms of military power. I never said they were winners, but they were not the losers either.

Chances are the problem lie with less-than-great generals like Sasarai. Twice he led Harmonian army in their meddling with the affairs of the southern nations, and twice he screwed up. Is it fair to claim this as Harmonia's weakening military power at large, or is it just Sasarai's incompetence?

About Shu, you make harmonia sound even weaker. If Shu really did only the absolute minimum to get harmonia to focus away from Higheast how much more if Shu preformed to his fullest capacity? As for what you said about it being merely some border skirmish or just messing with land lords that shows either the incompetence of Harmonia(they have millions of troops and yet they retreat becouse of some border skirmish?)or there fear that they could lose another part of there kingdom and how ill prepared they are for war.

Nope. What you said about what Shu can do at his full capacity is mere speculation. I said Shu probably was only able to mess up some parts of Harmonia, and that alone was more than enough to achieve his objectives of reducing the Harmonian support on the opposition side.

Remember that the rebellion was led by the Highland loyalists. Harmonia was acting in the capacity of an ally. It's the same formula all over again: mess up with the ally, and the ally weakens their military aid as they go back and take care of their own internal issues.

Of course, make no mistake. I actually agree with your main argument that Harmonia is no way near as strong as the reputation that it has gained over the years, but I find the evidence presented to not be convincing enough.

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Postby Jowy Atreides » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:15 pm

It probably didn't take much prodding. Think of when the City-states invaded the SME in the 1st game.
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Felenan Prince » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:26 pm

Aha I've found the proof i need. If we base it on suikosource timeline it clearly states that Shu incited a civil war in Harmonia.(kinda ironic considering that the higheast rebellion is more like civil war due to the fact Higheast was Dunan territory) And contrary to what you said the rebellion was incited by harmonia not highland loyalist. If some strategist from a different country was able to incite a civil war in harmonia that just shows how much internal discord there is in that country.

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Postby Templeton » Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:04 pm

Harmonia also lost to the Paladin Klift early on

They also had the rebellion which led to the creation of the allied state of "Highland" where they donated land.

Harmonia has also conquered Sanadia which is supposed to be in the west side of the country.

This theory could conclude that Harmonia is actually weak; but I think otherwise. I believe that perhaps in Harmonia's north there is a grand frontline that is keeping them at bay leading them to disregard minor targets like Dunan and Toran which if given full focus could be taken in a bliztkreig attack southward.

I personally think the final battle to take down Harmonia will be much like the battle between Freeza and Goku, long and bloody with the harmonian's underestimating the power of the "27" Heroes and then losing in the end.

Note: independent dialog about dragonball should only be in suikoden comparison form

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Postby Queens Knight » Thu May 04, 2006 4:30 pm

Harmonia is a huge military power, it was mentioned somewhere (S3 or on the forums here) that they have around 1 millions soldiers, but if you take into account how large Harmonia probally is (not sure of the actually size, but must be big to have that size of an army) how other countries border it and the threat of rebellion with all the third class citziens, you can see why it would be difficult for them to invade another country with even a quarter of thier forces.

For one they would have to leave a large amount of thier army to protect thier borders, keep the peace in Harmonia itself, not to mention the huge amount of resources you would need to keep an army of that size moving.
Now if another country invaded Harmonia or even several they would face the full might of Harmonia (Albert Silverberg and maybe other strategists, at least 2 True Runes that we know of, True Earth and Circle, the Howling Voice Guild) and more likely then not would be beaten back.

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Postby Templeton » Wed May 10, 2006 10:55 am

Actually, SARS Admin mentioned that the "1 million" soldiers were just made up and is not mentioned in the games (to bad).

That number kinda freeks me out however, much the same way when Freeza said his Power Level was "1 million" when no one else had that power to measure up(yet another DBZ statement).

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Postby Ushiku » Wed May 10, 2006 2:04 pm

Harmonia is pretty similar to Imperial Russia in that although is a vast nation, it is actually made up of many different conquered nations, and mass armament of the army would probably take awhile, which is why they like to send in smaller mercanary forces such as the Harmonian Southern Fringe Defense Force Units or use the Howling Voice Guild instead of always using their main army which isn't used unless completely necessary.
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Postby Felenan Prince » Thu May 11, 2006 11:25 pm

Just to point out Albert silverburg would not be serving Harmonia(he did betray them after all and i think it was stated he served a county on the western continent.) Also even if they fought the Howling Voice Guild it would not make that much of a difference after all its a relitively small group.

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Postby Wraith » Fri May 12, 2006 12:11 am

Felenan Prince wrote:Just to point out Albert silverburg would not be serving Harmonia(he did betray them after all and i think it was stated he served a county on the western continent.) Also even if they fought the Howling Voice Guild it would not make that much of a difference after all its a relitively small group.


Albert is from the famous Silverberg line of strategists and lives up to the name. He excelled in his class while studying in Harmonia; his philisophy starts to become like that of Leon, his grandfather, and he attains a high position in the Harmonian Army. This is not enough for him, and he helps Luc and the Destroyers in their quest as it will help him in his goal to get a higher position in the Harmonian hierarchy. He is rumored to also work for a country on another continent while working for Harmonia.
Albert (1
)


From the site.

Its only rumored. He IS working for Harmonia though.

Felenan Prince
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Postby Felenan Prince » Sat May 13, 2006 12:30 pm

Hmm personally i dont think he would be working for harmonia as a strategist. After all he did help Luc steal the True earth rune from Sasarai
Im positive there not gonna forgive that.

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Postby demon eye » Sat May 13, 2006 7:40 pm

Actually, Albert did not help Luc steal the True Earth Rune. That was all part of Luc's plan. Albert only went along with Luc to gather information to feed back to some individual at Harmonia in order to help gain a more prestigious position within Harmonia that's if I remember correctly.


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