Splitting True Runes

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Splitting True Runes

Postby DoReMi_Vampire » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:42 pm

Just thought I'd give my thoughts on something I think might explain some questions about the True Runes.

As I was playing SII again I got to the shrine in Toto where Leknaat appears and says the True Runes Bright Shield and Black Sword have chosen Riou and Jowy.

EDIT: After double-checking some let's plays on Youtube I saw that Leknaat says "One of the '27 true runes' has recognized you."
So she didn't state that they were True Runes by themselves, my bad. :( But it was none the less the following thoughts that got me thinking.

I was thinking along the lines of, “Hold on a sec. If those two are True Runes then does that mean that the Rune of Beginning is one level above the 27 True Runes? Since it after all is made of two True Runes rather than just being one of them.”
However, after some pondering I remembered that the Gate Rune also was split in two, yet both the Front and Back Gate Rune are still pretty much regarded as True Runes.
So my conclusion became that the Rune of Beginning is one of the original 27 True Runes which got split in two fragments that still count as True Runes.
So in a weird way there's actually at least 29 True Runes in the world.

This is only a guess but I think you probably could split every True Rune and get very unique runes in the process. Lets take the Rune of Beginning as our prime example first. I'm guessing the Rune of Beginning represents war/conflict and therefor governs Aggression (Black Sword) and Protectiveness (Bright Shield).
Now, lets instead look at the Blue Moon Rune. It governs Cruelty and Compassion. If it was split in two you'd probably get a Rune of Cruelty and a Rune of Compassion. They'd still be at the same level of power as the original True Rune, it's just that the power is limited to more specific concepts.

Please let me know if you think I'm on to something or if I'm just fooling myself. :D
Last edited by DoReMi_Vampire on Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Hirathien
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Hirathien » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:52 pm

Bright Shield Rune and Black Sword rune are not True Runes, but part of a true rune.

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Nikisaur
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Nikisaur » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:27 am

In this case, Leknaat is technically wrong. There is only one Rrue Rune present in that scenario, the Black Sword and Bright Shield being components of the Rune of Beginning. They are not True runes on their own. From what I can gather, the RoB works mostly in two parts, with it's power to 'judge wars' being forcing the two bearers to fight each other to make it whole again. In the end, there ends up being only one bearer of the True Rune, taking the other part from its bearer (although when/why/how it decides to split up and find new bearers again I have no idea).

My knowledge of the Gate Rune is fuzzy (I really need to replay that game!), but if you think about it, how many True Runes are splittable? The Rune of Beginning does it by nature, it seems, and the Gate Rune split between the front and back. Fair enough when you're looking at abstract concepts like Blue Moon's cruelty and compassion, but it gets trickier when you think of the elemental runes. What would you split True Fire into...heat and light? Water into hydrogen and oxygen?
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Iesous » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:33 pm

I don't think that the Rune of Beginning has ever been joined. I suppose if a bearer of the united rune were to die, like Luc and every Rune of Punishment bearer, then it might split. But we really know of only two sets of bearers, and Han and Genkaku did not join the two runes. This is evident since both still lived after sealing the runes. The only way to join the two halves is for one to defeat (i.e. kill) the other. The bearer of the Rune of Beginning would then gain the full benefits/curses of bearing the True Rune, to which they were not privileged/cursed when they were split.

As others have said in other threads, the split of the Rune of Beginning is not the same as the split of the Gate Rune. The Gate Rune was split apart, while the Rune of Beginning has always been split and is presumably awaiting consummation.

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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Nikisaur » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:20 pm

It hasn't been joined as far as we know... but I find it hard to believe that never, since the beginning of time, has someone with one part of the RoB killed the owner of the other part. Especially as there is the power of a True Rune forcing two people to fight. In Suikoden 2, the fact that Riou and Jowy overcame the RoB's intentions is the exceptional part of their story, refusing to let the rune be whole, despite its intentions.

Sorry, rant. But yeah - it seems unlikely to me the the RoB has been in two seperate parts forever.
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Redheim » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:19 am

DoReMi_Vampire wrote:Just thought I'd give my thoughts on something I think might explain some questions about the True Runes.

As I was playing SII again I got to the shrine in Toto where Leknaat appears and says the True Runes Bright Shield and Black Sword have chosen Riou and Jowy.

EDIT: After double-checking some let's plays on Youtube I saw that Leknaat says "One of the '27 true runes' has recognized you."
So she didn't state that they were True Runes by themselves, my bad. :( But it was none the less the following thoughts that got me thinking.

I was thinking along the lines of, “Hold on a sec. If those two are True Runes then does that mean that the Rune of Beginning is one level above the 27 True Runes? Since it after all is made of two True Runes rather than just being one of them.”
However, after some pondering I remembered that the Gate Rune also was split in two, yet both the Front and Back Gate Rune are still pretty much regarded as True Runes.
So my conclusion became that the Rune of Beginning is one of the original 27 True Runes which got split in two fragments that still count as True Runes.
So in a weird way there's actually at least 29 True Runes in the world.

This is only a guess but I think you probably could split every True Rune and get very unique runes in the process. Lets take the Rune of Beginning as our prime example first. I'm guessing the Rune of Beginning represents war/conflict and therefor governs Aggression (Black Sword) and Protectiveness (Bright Shield).
Now, lets instead look at the Blue Moon Rune. It governs Cruelty and Compassion. If it was split in two you'd probably get a Rune of Cruelty and a Rune of Compassion. They'd still be at the same level of power as the original True Rune, it's just that the power is limited to more specific concepts.

Please let me know if you think I'm on to something or if I'm just fooling myself. :D



You do bring up a great point about The Gate Rune being split -- and both sides being considered True Runes. Or maybe they aren't, we've just assumed they are. Food for thought...
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Raww Le Klueze
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:32 am

You do bring up a great point about The Gate Rune being split -- and both sides being considered True Runes. Or maybe they aren't, we've just assumed they are. Food for thought...

So... you're suggesting that if I take a cup of coffee and pour half of it into another cup I'll end up with one cup of beans and one cup of hot water rather than two smaller cups of coffee?
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Redheim » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:37 am

Raww Le Klueze wrote:
You do bring up a great point about The Gate Rune being split -- and both sides being considered True Runes. Or maybe they aren't, we've just assumed they are. Food for thought...

So... you're suggesting that if I take a cup of coffee and pour half of it into another cup I'll end up with one cup of beans and one cup of hot water rather than two smaller cups of coffee?


I understand your logic -- but does the same reasoning apply when we're talking about a fictional item as significant as a true rune? And unless you agree that the Bright Shield and Black Sword are both true runes after they split from the Beggining -- then that voids your point also. Because that WOULD mean you're pouring beans and hot water. lolol
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Raww Le Klueze
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:48 am

No. Just no.

The Bright Shield Rune and the Black Sword Rune are components of a True Rune, not True Runes in themselves. They are the beans and the hot water, together they make coffee, on their own they're not. This is the natural state of the Rune of Beginning.

The Gate Rune already is a True Rune, it doesn't need to be made. Splitting it doesn't turn it into something new, it's still just two smaller bits of it. Having two Gate Runes is an unnatural state of the Gate Rune.

And yes, we can apply the same logic because 1. Konami says this is how it is and 2. Luc says that it's still a True Rune.
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Redheim » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:52 am

Raww Le Klueze wrote:No. Just no.

The Bright Shield Rune and the Black Sword Rune are components of a True Rune, not True Runes in themselves. They are the beans and the hot water, together they make coffee, on their own they're not. This is the natural state of the Rune of Beginning.

The Gate Rune already is a True Rune, it doesn't need to be made. Splitting it doesn't turn it into something new, it's still just two smaller bits of it. Having two Gate Runes is an unnatural state of the Gate Rune.

And yes, we can apply the same logic because 1. Konami says this is how it is and 2. Luc says that it's still a True Rune.


Good job Raww -- as usual you're spot on. lolol One of the most valuable posters here.
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby DoReMi_Vampire » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:22 pm

Yeah, we can probably all agree on the fact that Bright Shield and Black Sword are just components that govern two seperate sides of conflict that the Trune of Beginning seems to represent. You could probably discuss the details of how that works till the end of time (and I'm sure other topics have already done this to death) so it can probably be left alone for now.

Moving on to the other part of the original question then. I hate to sound bossy by pointing out stuff and steering the discussion, but,
my main intent with creating this topic was to discuss the possibility of splitting True Runes into the smaller concepts that they govern.
E.g - Would splitting the Blue Moon Rune produce runes of Compassion and Cruelty?
- Would splitting the Circle Rune produce runes of Order and Stagnation?
- And so on...
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby Iesous » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:29 pm

No, I don't think just any rune can be split. Others have already mentioned runes like the elementals. Those don't have conceptual halves. Others may have conceptual halves, but I think the image of the rune makes a difference. The image of the Gate Rune has two equal, discernible parts. The Moon Rune does not. How could you possibly split it in half? Same with Punishment and Soul Eater. The images tell me that the Gate Rune is the only one which has been revealed that can be split.

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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby veriaqa » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:57 pm

Theoritically if Windy and Leknaat can split the Gate rune with some ancient Sindarin technique, then any true rune could be split too. But it would not result in new true runes (Moon rune into Compassion rune and Cruelty Rune). The result would only be two smaller in power of the exact same true rune (Gate rune that Leknaat helds only has half the power compared to complete Gate rune - Luc say it in Suiko3).
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Re: Splitting True Runes

Postby DoReMi_Vampire » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:56 pm

I think there just might be hints of the two halves of the Gate runes being different if you think about it. My main argument for thinking this would be the fact that they named them the "Front" and the "Back" Gate rune. So they could govern the concepts of Entrences and Exits I guess :?:
Furthermore the Gate runes have never been featured in actual gameplay so we can't know for sure if there are any differences or not in what spells they use. It's all speculation of course, but not impossible.

I havn't played SIII yet so I've tried to do my best to not to read any spoilers (all in vain though :( ). But does Luc give a lot of info on the Gate Rune in it?

And yeah, regarding the Elemental runes, I too would agree it would be hard to find any excuse for splitting those.
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