Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Hypothesis for, and analyses of, the various locations and backstory of the Suikoden world.
Zhang Qi
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Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Zhang Qi » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:04 am

Note: the explanation mentioned in this article does not represent information officially acknowledged by the creators of the Suikoden series, Konami but is just a speculation based on logical deduction inferred by the author of this article.

The Sindar are a nomadic race of people who built cities in various locations in the Suikoden world. They have developed advanced technology such as irrigation systems, gunpowder, metal processing, robotics, advanced medicine, and advanced control over runes. This rapid progress was brought about by the power of the Rune of Change but the price demanded by this rune in exchange for its ability to grant people the foresight to develop new technologies is that the people have to constantly travel from place to place and abandon the cities they built. The Sindar do not keep traveling forever though, because they ultimately settle down in a place they call the 'Eternal City'.

The Sindar may actually be the present day Holy Kingdom of Harmonia which was originally the Kingdom of Aronia but was conquered by the Sindar's leader High Priest Hikusaak because he needed the Circle Rune of Aronia which has the power of order, to nullify the effects of the Rune of Change and prevent the people from retaining a compulsion to constantly be on the move. Evidence which may support this speculation is the fact that Hikusaak can create clones of himself and the fact that the Howling Voice Guild, an espionage and assassination squad under the control of the Harmonian government possesses gunpowder, sophisticated drugs and poison. Harmonia is also the nation of choice for many people who want to become highly educated because of its advanced technology and in depth knowledge of magic and the physical sciences which are far in advance of all other countries in the world just like the Sindar.

Perhaps the reason why the Harmonians have a caste system is to exclude people who are not of the Sindar from positions of wealth and power. However, because of the notorious reputation of the Sindar to abandon their municipalities, they chose willingly to adopt a new name for themselves to cast aside the stigma they once carried as bizarre nomads and be taken more seriously on the stage of world politics. Ultimately, the reason for Harmonia's invasion of other countries may be to regain control of the old cities they built now that they have stabilized their state.

But perhaps for Hikusaak, regaining old territories is not enough, the Circle Rune which grants the power of stability along with the Rune of Change which grants unprecedented progress has given Harmonia great power in that the Circle Rune grants the ability for control and organization while the Rune of Change grants the power to make innovations and combining the two together has made the nation even more powerful. With this knowledge, Hikusaak is convinced that acquiring the power of all the other True Runes and combining these powers together will make him so powerful that he could possibly achieve omnipotence. There are two hindrances to this goal however, the areas that were once under Sindar control are now governed by other nations and there is a limit to how many True Runes a person can possess. But perhaps news of the Magician Crowley's capability to hold 100 runes has reached Hikusaak and has given him hope that progress in runology will eventually enable him to hold all the true runes together and have all of the world's power in his own hands. For the meantime, he has to settle with making clones and storing runes other than his Circle Rune into the clones for temporary storage.

Ultimately, should Crowley succeed in his research for the creation of artificial runes whose powers surpass the True Runes themselves and should Hikusaak get hold of this information and copy the true rune's magic into lifeless containers such as crystals or scrolls that have no free will, then his power would be virtually unlimited because he would no longer be subject to the will of the sentient True Runes. He could ultimately conquer the world and rule it as God.

Source for the facts used to support the argument:

gensopedia.duefiumi.com

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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Belcoot4 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:08 pm

Interesting, especialy about the Howling Voice Guild and the development of gun powder. This article mentions something of drugs and the only time I've seen drugs play a major roll during the series was in SV, so my question is Nether Gate another assasin group from Harmonia? The past Falenan Queens and also the Godwins have employed Nether Gates services since the construction of that country, did they offer some sort of currency or territories to Harmonia in exchange for Nether Gate support. Nether Gate possesed many drugs, two in praticular (Dark Arcanum and Raging Nostrum), that no doctors or even any royalty could detect or know that they existed. Only former Nether Gate members (Lyon and the detectives) have any knowledge of these drugs so that only leaves Harmonia because they have the money, technology, and power to allow such a group to exist.
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Postby Zhang Qi » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:18 am

The Nether Gate are a separate group from the Howling Voice Guild but they could easily have journeyed to Harmonia and purchased formulas and instruction manuals for making the drugs with permission from the Harmonian government. Since the two countries are not at war, such an arrangement can easily be made.

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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Rezard » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:48 pm

What about the Fog Ship Guide that appears on Suikoden IV? Wasnt he banished to the eternal city?
"Being banished" makes one think that this city is on another dimension(or something like that) and not Harmonia.

Also, Fog Ship Guide held the Soul Eater for a long time. If he was linked to Harmonia, than why didnt he simply turned the rune to Harmonia, where the true runes were being collected by Hikusaak?

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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby patapi » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:11 pm

This is an interesting speculation, even if it makes Harmonia appears far more powerful than they should. A relevant explanation for the Fog Ship's relations with the Sindar would have been an added bonus, too.

Zhang Qi wrote:Evidence which may support this speculation is the fact that Hikusaak can create clones of himself and the fact that the Howling Voice Guild, an espionage and assassination squad under the control of the Harmonian government possesses gunpowder, sophisticated drugs and poison.

What does having both the Circle Rune and the Rune of Change have anything to do with cloning? And if you use the steal/buy drug formulae argument for Nether Gate, perhaps it could also be assume the same was done by the Tower, assuming the Sindar Clan is of a different group of people.

But perhaps for Hikusaak, regaining old territories is not enough, the Circle Rune which grants the power of stability along with the Rune of Change which grants unprecedented progress has given Harmonia great power in that the Circle Rune grants the ability for control and organization while the Rune of Change grants the power to make innovations and combining the two together has made the nation even more powerful. With this knowledge, Hikusaak is convinced that acquiring the power of all the other True Runes and combining these powers together will make him so powerful that he could possibly achieve omnipotence. There are two hindrances to this goal however, the areas that were once under Sindar control are now governed by other nations and there is a limit to how many True Runes a person can possess. But perhaps news of the Magician Crowley's capability to hold 100 runes has reached Hikusaak and has given him hope that progress in runology will eventually enable him to hold all the true runes together and have all of the world's power in his own hands. For the meantime, he has to settle with making clones and storing runes other than his Circle Rune into the clones for temporary storage.

Ultimately, should Crowley succeed in his research for the creation of artificial runes whose powers surpass the True Runes themselves and should Hikusaak get hold of this information and copy the true rune's magic into lifeless containers such as crystals or scrolls that have no free will, then his power would be virtually unlimited because he would no longer be subject to the will of the sentient True Runes. He could ultimately conquer the world and rule it as God.

Do we know if Crowley's research is about bearing more than many True Runes at once? Crowley's ability to bear those 100s of runes must have been around for quite some time, considering his whole duel and rebirth scenes with Mazus.

Moreover, we have also seen canonical examples of exceptional magic users with the ability to use more than one True Runes at once: Windy and Sarah. So, why Crowley?

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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby SirNadir » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:20 pm

But, wasn't Windy's reason for trying to find the Soul Eater to have two True Runes at once which implies she only had one.

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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Nikisaur » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:53 am

But, the reason Windy was after the Soul Eater is because she had the ability to bear two - her half of the Gate Rune plus the Soul Eater.. Otherwise she would have less reason to pursue it...
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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Silverberg » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:08 pm

I'd say the theory that Harmonians are descendants of the Sindar seems pretty plausable. If the Rune of Change forced the Sindar to move from place to place for hundreds of years, abandoning their hard work constantly, I'd probably get pretty sick and tired of that. Hikusaak probably sealed the Rune of Change like he had done with the True Elemental runes during S3. Even though he had the rune, he didn't need to worry about it's influence over the Sindar. Therefore, they settled somewhere and evolved into Harmoni and like suggested above, is slowly trying to regain what they were forced to give up while influenced by the Rune of Change. I like this theory alot.

Also, if he did create a clone of himself to house the Rune of Change, then there's probably a 3rd Luc/Sasarai brother out there somewhere. But then again, the rune is probably held in a crystal to prevent it from starting the cycle of change up again.

I'm not very familiar with the Circle Rune or what it's purpose is.

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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby DoReMi_Vampire » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:46 am

Sadly enough I find a lot of these theories pretty hard to believe.
If the Sindars are the current Harmonians I don't see any reason for why they would need to hide this fact from the rest of the world. As far as I know there's never been a person that has looked down on the Sindars simply because they belong to a different nomadic culture.

Furthermore, while I could believe the Sindar may have created gunpowder, this doesn't prove the HVG has any connection to the Sindar. Their possession of it could just as easily be explained by saying that the guild found the gunpowder in an abandoned Sindar ruin.

I think the idea about the Sindar coming back at some point and trying to take back their old cities could be a cool story though.

To give my personal thoughts on this mystery I always thought that the Eternal City of the Sindar was some kind of moving island/ship that the Fog Ship transports you to. The Sindar are cursed to constantly traveling around so if they lived in a moving city then they could live there forever and call it home.
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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Silverberg » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:01 pm

Sindar were an ancient people. Very mysterious. I suppose after settling in the area now known as Harmonia, the bloodline could have been mixed with people outside the Sindar, leaving Hikusaak the only true blooded Sindar left. If that were the case, and the Harmonians aren't true Sindar anymore, it might not be their desire to reclaim all that which was lost to them. Hikusaak seems to be the one everyone talks about from Harmonia. He seems to be the one has the desire to reclaim or hunt down the true runes. Maybe Harmonians as they are today aren't really all that much better off than than 2nd class citizens, kept out of the affairs of the ruling party and only used in war in Hikusaak's best interest.

As for guns, given that Harmonia seems to be full of knowledge and learning institutions, someone with more access to research materials could have invented it. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a Sindar invention.

If Harmonia is now what the Sindar have settled into, then the Eternal City could be the capital city of Hamonia. If Hikusaak removed the Rune of Change, then there's no reason for it to travel around anymore, or whatever.

I have no idea. But speculation is fun!
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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:17 am

Problem: Harmonia is to the north. Sindars traveled south.

Problem 2: Sindars predate Aronia.

Problem 3: Leknaat banishes the Fog Ship Guide back to the Eternal Capital, hard to believe this is supposed to be Crystal Valley as the banishment would be rather pathetic.

Conclusion: Theory is implausible and reads more like fanfiction.
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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Jam-Jul Lison » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:42 am

Raww Le Klueze wrote:Problem: Harmonia is to the north. Sindars traveled south.



This right here is what makes me want to immediately dismiss this idea as not likely. From what I recall it made it clear they were traveling south.

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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Xelinis » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:01 am

Knowing that the Soul Eater was based on the Stormbringer from Michael Moorcock's Elric Saga, I decided to begin researching the multiverse he created with the full intention of reading the books when I have the time. Tonight, I found this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanelorn wrote:Tanelorn is a fictional city set in the Multiverse of Michael Moorcock's fantasy novels.
Tanelorn shares some properties with the author's key character, the Eternal Champion, namely its existence in all dimensions, albeit not at the same time (time being a very strange concept in Moorcock's fiction). The city's nature is to appear and disappear both in place and time throughout the multiverse, as it sees fit. Because it can never be destroyed, it is sometimes called The Eternal City. (Its inhabitants, however, may be killed.) In the world of Elric, Moorcock's most famous Champion, the city exists in the Young Kingdoms, somewhere on the fringe of the Sighing Desert. Various characters hint that Tanelorn is accessible from any dimension, to anyone who seeks it, but the search is usually difficult and long. Elric is unique among incarnations of the Eternal Champion in finding the city easily, and in choosing to leave it.
The city serves as a safe harbour for the Eternal Champions and their companions; in the city, they forget for a brief time the burdens their roles lay upon them. Since the city is so closely linked with the Champions, the theme of the championate is ever-present. In one book, inside the bounds of the city are statues of all Eternal Champions, past, present and future, including Erekosë. Tanelorn changes its appearance from one realm to the next.
The city is not allied with either Chaos or Law, but at times it is brought into connection with the Grey Lords (the keepers of balance in Moorcock's Multiverse). Therefore it is prone to attack, especially from the agents of Chaos.
In Moorcock's Swords Trilogy, it is revealed that Kwll, one of the two most powerful gods, is imprisoned in Tanelorn, as it is the only city close enough to hold a being of his power.
There are 2 Blind Guardian songs named "The Quest For Tanelorn" (which is the title of the final book about Hawkmoon), and "Tanelorn (Into The Void)".
It is revealed at the end of the novel The Quest for Tanelorn, that the city was made by the Captain of the Dark Ship, and his brother, the Steersman.


It's perfect. If the Sindar are forced to move, why not live within a city that moves itself?

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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Rachael » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:52 am

Haha, I can see, Xelinis, why you have Richmond as your icon!

I think it sounds like a good theory, other than the fact that the Sindar moved south. Although, if the world of Suikoden is round like earth, if you go far enough south you'll end up north again. It's all relative.
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Re: Explanation for the Mystery of the Sindar in Suikoden

Postby Xelinis » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:23 am

Thinking about it more, some of the pieces of Suikoden's story are beginning to fall into place. While we know that Leknaat can open the gate to the Eternal City, perhaps Viki, as someone who can travel through time and space, can as well.

I'm thinking now that her ultimate role in the story is to one day lead the final Tenkai Star to this city.


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