The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
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Vextor
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Vextor » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:41 am

This probably has more to do with the quality of the story. Murayama did put a lot of thought into the plot of Suikoden 2 to make rivalry between strategists very interesting. You had Apple initially as a strategist, and then comes Shu, and you have enemy strategists such as Klaus and Leon.

In Suikoden 5, you pretty much have Lucretia, and the enemies have no real strategist (I don't think Gizel was really a strategist at all). Basically, the story seems to have been written to make Lucretia seem like a strategic goddess, but the storywriter himself didn't have the ability to showcase her abilities without relying on hard-to-believe gimmicks.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby KFCrispy » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:22 am

Konami usually emphasized that good strategists can predict general human behavior. in real life, you do rely heavily on predicting human behavior to figure out where to search/attack, etc... but you would not risk your life on weapons and vehicles without knowing they are somewhat reliable. that's the difference between Lucretia's floodgate tactic and Shu's ruse to protect North Window. Lucretia predicted correctly that the dam would be destroyed by the Godwins by utilizing the Sun Rune (i forget), and bet the entire fleet's survival on antique mechanisms (and these weren't even made by the ingenious Sindarians). a more realistic tactic would be to send Raftfleet as a decoy to get destroyed and have the army charge the city with cavalry and/or the secret passages before the Sun Rune could be used again. of course you lose a lot of ships, but that's more realistic when you're going against a true rune.

in this game series, the "ultimate showdown" of strategy is between Shu/Apple and Leon, when Shu did something Leon could not predict.

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mikain Clan King » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:19 pm

Well if Suikoden 5 didn't really have any strategists then Lucretia didn't have any competition, for all we know she coulda just used basic instincts on what the normal soldiers (enemies) would do in a situation, then just switch it around and win...
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:40 pm

i did not disregard the factor of luck in every strategy, i'm arguing that Lucretia purely had good knowledge of history and luck

thats all there is to her, having those two does not mean strategy

unlike with Shu, he devised something, he planned and manipulated the elements of the battlefield in order to win which i think is what strategists do (and not to bet on luck entirely)

True that Shu's plan may fail, may go wrong, and go busted but thats the truth for every strategy there is

in short Shu did something to lessen these risk of dangers while Lucretia sit idly by betting that her knowledge about the Feitas river will not fail her


You are just using the same argument...The Feitas river...Looks like you forgot the others strategies she cooked as well, like the one where we have to protect our cities while they evacuated with food, so the enemy army would starve after a long campaign...She predicted that the enemy would occupy their base of operations while they were away, because this was the best defensive position of all the other taken strongholds, after that, she sent Hero to flood everything by opening the ancient Sindar sluice gate, that wasn't luck...It was a smart move.

In the siege of Rainwall, which you fight with Barows army, her knowledge of the Armes army there wasn't luck too...Drawning the enemy to the woods so they could see Armes there, just waiting to join the raid. She is smart, but her knownlodge surpass her inteligence, and she assumpts a lot with no concrete opinion, but her assumptions are always right.

Can't really talk about Shu because i don't play SII for like...4 years XD But i still remember a lot of things, just need some trigger to it...But, all the tatics i remember about him is "Send the Hero there" or "Send the Army there and win".
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Chaco » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:07 pm

Can't really talk about Shu because i don't play SII for like...4 years XD But i still remember a lot of things, just need some trigger to it...But, all the tatics i remember about him is "Send the Hero there" or "Send the Army there and win".


It was more than that, he had to time everything perfectly and send certain people to certain places in order to succeed in battle. it wasn't just random "you go there and fight and stuff" there was a lot more to it.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Belle » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:02 pm

It always seemed like... Lucretia's strategies never really revolved around the game events... more like, the game events revolved around her strategies. I get that she's supposed to know a lot, but to see this ten times in a row--

"Woowww, Lucretiaaaa, you KNEW that was gonna happen?? Coooooool!"
"...I had a feeling."

--just seemed a bit too convenient for me.

Yeah, I would blame the writing, too.

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby RangerDeon » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:56 pm

Belle wrote:It always seemed like... Lucretia's strategies never really revolved around the game events... more like, the game events revolved around her strategies. I get that she's supposed to know a lot, but to see this ten times in a row--

"Woowww, Lucretiaaaa, you KNEW that was gonna happen?? Coooooool!"
"...I had a feeling."

--just seemed a bit too convenient for me.

Yeah, I would blame the writing, too.

YES! I got sick of that.

I mean, seriously, how many times can you be surprised that she knew what he was doing?

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:03 pm

YES! I got sick of that.

I mean, seriously, how many times can you be surprised that she knew what he was doing?


T.T I liked, cause it removed the same thing that all Suikoden do "All praise the silent Hero! /o/" And for a change the hard worker strategist get the praise she deserves...And she deserved it really.
And now, a little tribute to Kyle x)

" . . . You're kidding me. You DIDN'T look?! WHY THE HELL NOT?! That
was a once in a lifetime opportunity! I can't believe you passed that up!
Damn! I gotta say, you just let down every man in Falena. . ."

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mio » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:07 am

Mushra wrote:
YES! I got sick of that.

I mean, seriously, how many times can you be surprised that she knew what he was doing?


T.T I liked, cause it removed the same thing that all Suikoden do "All praise the silent Hero! /o/" And for a change the hard worker strategist get the praise she deserves...And she deserved it really.

*chanting*

(still contradicting all post that Mushra made in this thread)

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:34 pm

*chanting*

(still contradicting all post that Mushra made in this thread)


Shut up! I kill you! By Achmed XD

PS: IF you don't know who is Achmed take a loo at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go
And now, a little tribute to Kyle x)

" . . . You're kidding me. You DIDN'T look?! WHY THE HELL NOT?! That
was a once in a lifetime opportunity! I can't believe you passed that up!
Damn! I gotta say, you just let down every man in Falena. . ."

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby RangerDeon » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:46 pm

Mushra wrote:
YES! I got sick of that.

I mean, seriously, how many times can you be surprised that she knew what he was doing?


T.T I liked, cause it removed the same thing that all Suikoden do "All praise the silent Hero! /o/" And for a change the hard worker strategist get the praise she deserves...And she deserved it really.

:D:D

I'm sorry, but I hated her methods. I wouldn't be able to work with someone or trust someone if they couldn't tell me what they're plan is. Buuuuuuuut don't get me wrong, she was a great strategist, I mean, they won the war, but her methods bugged me.

I guess it's because I hate when things go unfinished, thoughts, sentences, you name it. It's like "A shave and a haircut" without the second part. I wanted to shake her and yell "TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELL MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE WHY I"M GOING THERE!!!" But there's no such thing as scratch and feel TV. . . . . . haha. . that doesn't sound right. . .

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:08 pm

I'm sorry, but I hated her methods. I wouldn't be able to work with someone or trust someone if they couldn't tell me what they're plan is


Well i can't argue against that, you're right, but she is a GREAT tactician! /o/
And now, a little tribute to Kyle x)

" . . . You're kidding me. You DIDN'T look?! WHY THE HELL NOT?! That
was a once in a lifetime opportunity! I can't believe you passed that up!
Damn! I gotta say, you just let down every man in Falena. . ."

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby RangerDeon » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:13 pm

Mushra wrote:
I'm sorry, but I hated her methods. I wouldn't be able to work with someone or trust someone if they couldn't tell me what they're plan is


Well i can't argue against that, you're right, but she is a GREAT tactician! /o/

Yes, I admit she was good.

"I wasn't getting rid of you. I want you to do whatever you want to do with me. I know that sounded dirty, and dirty things count, but I didn't mean the dirty things. You and me can hang whenever, wherever."
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Chaco » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:36 pm

I'm sorry, but I hated her methods. I wouldn't be able to work with someone or trust someone if they couldn't tell me what they're plan is. Buuuuuuuut don't get me wrong, she was a great strategist, I mean, they won the war, but her methods bugged me.


This is exactly it, and I bet most people on here feel this way, she was a great tactian she just needed to tell people what the hell it was she was doing.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:31 pm

ANYWAY let's made good use of this topic and change the subject...The next Strategist /o/ I would like to to be some kind Anti-hero, no nome Silverberg family some unknown guy who was trained by a hermit that spent his days craking coconuts with his head in a isolated island...Anyway, anything NEW will be welcome to me
And now, a little tribute to Kyle x)

" . . . You're kidding me. You DIDN'T look?! WHY THE HELL NOT?! That
was a once in a lifetime opportunity! I can't believe you passed that up!
Damn! I gotta say, you just let down every man in Falena. . ."


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