The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
KFCrispy
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:14 pm

i think Lucretia depended way too much on luck, and on top of that, she didn't bother to explain her plans or tactics to Prince, so it didn't help him make decisions. for instance, when you have to choose to flee HQ or stay, she could just say "I sent Georg to free the dragon horses so the Dragon Cavalry Knights should be able to support us soon--fleeing will buy time and reduce casualties."
Instead she just says it's a better idea to flee.
Then of course when attacking Sol Falena, she risks the entire fleet/army, betting that the beavers would be able to re-activate the flood control mechanism.

Many strategists in this game series don't say what their plan is until last second, when they are about to try the tactic... is this really a good tactician idea or is it just Konami's attempt to keep things suspenseful as a game...

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Chaco
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Chaco » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:58 pm

Many strategists in this game series don't say what their plan is until last second, when they are about to try the tactic... is this really a good tactician idea or is it just Konami's attempt to keep things suspenseful as a game...


Most likely it's Konami's plan to make things more suspenseful, I mean it really did work in that sense.
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Mio
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mio » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:24 pm

i almost forgot this...

Remember when Apple was trying to recruit Shu?

She was so decided to do what she needs to do

Doing it no matter what it takes

didn't this side of Apple appealed to you?

didn't this Apple appeared strong to you?

for me she did

now where did that Apple go?

did her character transferred over to S3?

to Agnes?

to Tanya?

to Cius?

to Lelei?

hmmm

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Chaco
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Chaco » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:15 am

i almost forgot this...

Remember when Apple was trying to recruit Shu?

She was so decided to do what she needs to do

Doing it no matter what it takes

didn't this side of Apple appealed to you?

didn't this Apple appeared strong to you?

for me she did

now where did that Apple go?

did her character transferred over to S3?

to Agnes?

to Tanya?

to Cius?

to Lelei?

hmmm


Let me just say this, I think I see in Apple what Sheena saw, under that borish, innocent exterior is a strong, attractive, mature and loveable woman, who's goal in life was to learn as much about her master as she could, and maybe ever surpassing him, which in my opinion she did.
It's to bad she can't change star spots.... :(
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Mushra
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:11 pm

I do agree that in some Suikodens the estrategists were really lame...Like SIV strategist...Just what the hell she was doing there? She just hanged around drinking a booze and bossing around with no real constructive tactic...
But in SV i saw a true strategist, Lucretia was really amazing playing her role, and i have to disagree with Krispy that she deppended a lot of luck...She foresaw how all her tactics would develop, and created back-up plans cause they didn't went as she planned. She didn't deppended on luck, she deppended on peoples cappacity, and i think this is a great strategist feature...To share the burden and trust in those around her made Prince's army to be victorious, and besides that she did have some insights and plans that normal people could never ever realize (in-game of course...) Like Hatred Fortress assault...Ceras lake flooding, the flee tatic that made the enemy's knapsack go empty, and a lot other ones, in my opinion she was the best tactician of all Suikoden series
And now, a little tribute to Kyle x)

" . . . You're kidding me. You DIDN'T look?! WHY THE HELL NOT?! That
was a once in a lifetime opportunity! I can't believe you passed that up!
Damn! I gotta say, you just let down every man in Falena. . ."

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby RangerDeon » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:35 pm

the only thing i have against Lucretia is the fact that she never told the Prince her plans. . .

"I wasn't getting rid of you. I want you to do whatever you want to do with me. I know that sounded dirty, and dirty things count, but I didn't mean the dirty things. You and me can hang whenever, wherever."
-Lorelai Gilmore

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Mushra
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:43 pm

Well...I may be overprotecting her, but in my opinion this is indeed the right thing to do.

Some plans don't need to be told, since sometimes the plans don't go as we were expecting, so there is a lot of improvisement present. If people do know her plans and try to act by it, she will lose her liberty to improvise as much as she want, since there are other people involved in that scheme...And there is a scene that she says something like "You don't stop to amaze me Prince, you already got my plan didn't you?" Maybe she want to test Prince's clevery and capacity for logical solution by making him figures her outline, since she was planning to leave the army after liberating Sol-Falena and the country needed a leader which was at least capable to act as a estrategist in the meantime Lelei is training to follow Lucretia steps...Maybe not, don't know actually, this is just especulation.
And now, a little tribute to Kyle x)

" . . . You're kidding me. You DIDN'T look?! WHY THE HELL NOT?! That
was a once in a lifetime opportunity! I can't believe you passed that up!
Damn! I gotta say, you just let down every man in Falena. . ."

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Mio
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mio » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:25 pm

now that you mention it Lucretia kinda looks a lot like the "Lady Luck" in FFX-2 with her fan and that dashing outfit

it may not be entirely wrong to presume that luck was a factor in Lucretia's strategies
(wow wrecked ships just happen to be at the bottom of the Feitas River, as if the gods intended it to be)

perhaps the reason why i was not so impressed with Lucretia was because Shu raised the bar of standards for tacticians way high that i always kept comparing Lucretia to him

in Elenor's defense, she may not be the brightest tactician in the entire series but at least she made up for it with attitude the other thing i think Lucretia lacked

in a word Lucretia was slutty

"slutty" and "smart" just don't sit well with me

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:02 pm

Wait...U're confused, the wrecked ships weren't luck...She KNEW the ships were there, or at least, she insighted that the ships would be there, basing her conclusion on past facts (The battle 8 years ago left a lot of debris and sort, so Raftfleet tryed to remove most of it, but much of these debris remained underneath, and Lucretia remembered it, since she was supervising the war and the cleaning maybe) And about Shu...Yes, he is good too, but no better then Lucretia really, they are in the same rank in my opinion...
And now, a little tribute to Kyle x)

" . . . You're kidding me. You DIDN'T look?! WHY THE HELL NOT?! That
was a once in a lifetime opportunity! I can't believe you passed that up!
Damn! I gotta say, you just let down every man in Falena. . ."

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Chaco
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Chaco » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:07 pm

Chief Strategist
1. Shu
I thought Shu's tactics were witty, well played and all worked the way he wanted. He wasn't worried about sacraficing men to get the job done, he was cool and collected and understood what it meant to fight a war, he had respect for the leader (Riou) and did eventually understand how to play "not by the book"

2. Lucretia
Aftre playing 3-4 I almost gave up hope...then came Lucretia. She is witty, intellegent, attractive and she has a fan. Some of her tactics did rely on luck, however they came through in the end. Like Shu she wasn't worried abotu taking risks to get the job done.

3. Caesar
Caesar, although he was young, did seem to have a good grib on tactics, my problem with him was that he was to worried about his brother and his past to really pull of the good strategies he could have, however he was a good character to, not so stern and borish, he was easy to take orders from because he was more down to earth.

4. Mathiu
To be honest, I dispise Mathiu for a few reasons. 1, his tactics were so damn stupid, hey let's send our LEADER to scout to see if something is up with the Elves. He didn't see that Sanchez was a villian even though it was really obvious (I mean the guy wasn't even a Sod). His good qualities is that some of his steategies did work and he was respectful to Tir. However he was the cause fo the Kalekka incident and I bealive the war between the Scarlet-Moon Empire and the City-State of Jowston as well, by involving them with morivia.

5. Elenor
Elenor was a fool, in my opinon, all she did was drink and insult Lazlo all the time, as well as everyone else. She had no real tactics or words to give Lazlo. To be honest I'm glad she stayed behind when the place was falling down.

Secondary Strategist
1. Apple
I've stated how I feel about apple, she is awesome. I think she is better then Mathiu and Elenor and heres the thing, as a secondary tacitian SHE ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING. Bonus!

2. Agnes
althoguh she was totally useless, she had to deal with Elenor all day so she deserves some credit.

3. Lelei
Lelei's only real role was to give Lucretia someone to talk to when she needed to, but she had no real idea's she put down on the table and was quite a boring character.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mikain Clan King » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:23 pm

Chaco wrote: To be honest I'm glad she stayed behind when the place was falling down.

Yeah if she came she probably would've 'found' a short cut...but I think Shu was the best, and all the other's cons outweighed there pros...so I guess they all tie, Lucretia just was lucky alot.
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Mio
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mio » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:46 am

Mushra wrote:Wait...U're confused, the wrecked ships weren't luck...She KNEW the ships were there, or at least, she insighted that the ships would be there, basing her conclusion on past facts (The battle 8 years ago left a lot of debris and sort, so Raftfleet tryed to remove most of it, but much of these debris remained underneath, and Lucretia remembered it, since she was supervising the war and the cleaning maybe) And about Shu...Yes, he is good too, but no better then Lucretia really, they are in the same rank in my opinion...

im not confused, i played the game, i knew that part well because it was utterly unbelievable to:

1. happen to have the wrecked ships on the exact battle site
2. how meticuluously the ships are wrecked (so that they sink on deep waters) so as to only affect the enemy's huge ships and not Lucretia's (fishing boats?)

Lucretia did nothing on these, she just knew history, knowing history is not the same as formulating a strategy

compare this to Shu's debut battle (Solon Jhee's attack)

1. happen to have the castle on a peninsula
2. spread rumor to weaken enemy's morale
3. particularly planned it to make the flag bearer to attack Solon's main unit...

see in this contrast, Shu devised something while Lucretia was lucky that the site of battle happen to favor her side

...

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:02 pm

2. Lucretia
Aftre playing 3-4 I almost gave up hope...then came Lucretia. She is witty, intellegent, attractive and she has a fan. Some of her tactics did rely on luck, however they came through in the end. Like Shu she wasn't worried abotu taking risks to get the job done.


please people, the Sol Falena assault was total suicide. it worked out because it's a GAME. could anyone really rely on 100-year-old anything as your lifeline? Those flood gates were FORGOTTEN relics of the past and while Lucretia had strong knowledge of the land and history, she failed to even bother to have them tested.
i don't complain too much about other plans she had, but this one was ridiculous.

i'm thinking of ways they could have approached this.. it might have been interesting if they did a night ambush similar to the Godwins' (possibly even using the same sleeping drugs that Nethergate used earlier in the day, or put it in the water supply...). would have been a far more interesting tactic!

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mushra » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:25 pm

compare this to Shu's debut battle (Solon Jhee's attack)

1. happen to have the castle on a peninsula
2. spread rumor to weaken enemy's morale
3. particularly planned it to make the flag bearer to attack Solon's main unit...

see in this contrast, Shu devised something while Lucretia was lucky that the site of battle happen to favor her side


Dude...What else need more luck than this tatic? XD And if the soldiers from the enemy simple refused to fight agains Jhee? What if Freed was caught? That just reinforce what a told...ALL estrategists need luck, Shu too depended a lot in luck in a big number of battles, so we can't talk bad about a estrategist just because he is lucky...Anyway, they are "Star os Destiny" right? They have to be lucky XD

please people, the Sol Falena assault was total suicide. it worked out because it's a GAME. could anyone really rely on 100-year-old anything as your lifeline? Those flood gates were FORGOTTEN relics of the past and while Lucretia had strong knowledge of the land and history, she failed to even bother to have them tested.
i don't complain too much about other plans she had, but this one was ridiculous.

i'm thinking of ways they could have approached this.. it might have been interesting if they did a night ambush similar to the Godwins' (possibly even using the same sleeping drugs that Nethergate used earlier in the day, or put it in the water supply...). would have been a far more interesting tactic!


Yeah it needed to be tested, but we didn't have time to do that...And if we had, it would be very risky. But well, you're right, this was a ultimate show of luckyness x) I don't care really, i won't think low of her just because of that only small part that actually don't make sense, cause for me the whole game have a plot much better then the other ones, much more detailed and original...Can't blame if they got tired and just wanted to finish the game fast XD
And now, a little tribute to Kyle x)

" . . . You're kidding me. You DIDN'T look?! WHY THE HELL NOT?! That
was a once in a lifetime opportunity! I can't believe you passed that up!
Damn! I gotta say, you just let down every man in Falena. . ."

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Mio
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mio » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:49 am

Dude...What else need more luck than this tatic? XD And if the soldiers from the enemy simple refused to fight agains Jhee? What if Freed was caught? That just reinforce what a told...ALL estrategists need luck, Shu too depended a lot in luck in a big number of battles, so we can't talk bad about a estrategist just because he is lucky...Anyway, they are "Star os Destiny" right? They have to be lucky XD

i did not disregard the factor of luck in every strategy, i'm arguing that Lucretia purely had good knowledge of history and luck

thats all there is to her, having those two does not mean strategy

unlike with Shu, he devised something, he planned and manipulated the elements of the battlefield in order to win which i think is what strategists do (and not to bet on luck entirely)

True that Shu's plan may fail, may go wrong, and go busted but thats the truth for every strategy there is

in short Shu did something to lessen these risk of dangers while Lucretia sit idly by betting that her knowledge about the Feitas river will not fail her


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