The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
The fighting 108
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby The fighting 108 » Sun May 03, 2009 2:22 am

Yeah, Le Lei was definitely a weak character whose comparison boosted Lucretia's own image. The ones for s4 were even less essential. Salome was very strong in s3, and I'm sort of surprised that Chris got promoted over him. Does experience not count for anything anymore? I've not had the chance to play s1 or 2, so I can't really comment about Apple's progression as a person, but she didn't exactly scream brilliant tactician in s3. As for Alfred, it seemed like he didn't really care one way or the other about the war's outcome so he didn't really have to try to hard after the initial success of the invasion. His game was more of about self serving political leveraging with in Harmonia, not against the Grasslands or Zexen.

I rate Lucretia a good deal above any of the other strategists in the Suikoden games that I have played (3-5 and tactics). A lot of people comment about her not disclosing her plan and pointing out that it's probably because she was relying mostly on luck, but the impression I get is that she doesn't trust anyone and will only disclose enough to get the wheels turning. The game already reveals to us that she has no problems betraying her employer if she feels that it goes against her nebulous code of conduct, so perhaps she was preparing for the event that she might have to betray the prince as well.

About the 'bland' personality and constant poker face... I would say that it's most essential to a strategist to ALWAYS have a poker face up due to the fact that you never know who you will be fighting in the future. This alone gives her a massive edge over her former colleagues as she knows their thought process but they are clueless about hers. Also, as she advises Le Lei, it's critical to never apologize for anything or even hint that your plan went wrong. This builds up an legacy of invincibility that can sap the morale of an opposing force before they even get to the battle field just by the hint that you might be there to direct the battle. Everyone thinks their dancing in the palm of her hand when the actual odds might be in their favor.

Defense of Raftfleet... I think it's unfair to say she relied on luck. The Godwin Navy was after Raftfleet, a mobile target. If the section of the river happened to be clear, she could have just advised that Raftfleet hoist anchor and sail to a portion of the river with a similar lay out and still spring her trap. The fact that it was already there saves game time. Even if Luger's fleet didn't charge head in and bottom out on the debris, their ships would still be at a disadvantage as they'd have to maneuver around the shallow sections to engage the smaller, nimbler Raftfleet vessels. Can one blame her just because the best case scenario happened to play out? As for her knowing something that Raja and Luger didn't know, Raja at least did know about the debris from the ruined dam. How ever she was in a rather tight spot and her mind might not have been focused on engaging the enemy. Remember she trained most of Godwin's navy and she said that it was like fighting her own children.

Attack on Sol Falena... Once more saying she was relying on luck is a bit unfair. It was stated that she had the Beaver's rebuild the sluice system and some are criticizing it as relying on faulty technology. That might not be giving the Beaver's the credit they deserve. Remember they built a water break with the capacity of holding back a Tsunami in no time flat. Odds are they could have rebuilt the flood control system from scratch if they really had to. If they needed more time, she probably would have managed the attack differently, turning it into a stalling game till they were ready.

Vextor wrote:Some of you would know that Liu Bei in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms had the "Hidden Dragon" Zhuge Liang and "Phoenix Chick" Pang Tong under him. Both were considered equals, but Liu Bei tended to favor Zhuge Liang, resulting in Pang Tong taking increasingly risky moves, resulting in his death at the "Falling Phoenix Pass." Something of the like would be interesting than having one ultimate strategist who can blast through everything and defeat any opponent with the flick of their fingernail.


The guy road a CURSED horse up a pass that might has well been named, "Guys named Pang Tong are going to die here." Man I'm not one to believe in omens... but those might even have me thinking that going that route is not such a good idea.

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Belcoot4 » Sun May 03, 2009 2:16 pm

I have to agree most of the supporting strategists except for a few play minute roles in actually supporting the strategist. Lelei didn't seem very intellegent and acted in sheer emotion when making descion which emotions can get you killed when it comes to war. Not to spoil anything but Apple has come a long way in SIII compared to the first two she played in. Shes too hesitant and doesn't believe in herself so with that she'll never become a full blow strategist until she faces those demons. Yes in SIV the supporting strategist basicaly play no role but they weren't really needed either, with Eleanor and Lino making most of the descions there wasn't much room for anybody else. For pure support I'd say Salome and Klaus from SII are the two best. Salome is extremley clever, very intellegent, and understands politics. I also wondered why Salome was past over by Chris when it came to lead the Zexen Knights but then it came quite clear in the scene where Louis says something about announcing that Chris was officialy appointed Captain. The captain is someone they all can trust and put their lives in her hands. Salome had most of those qualities just when it comes to battle hes more of a mentalist than a warrior. Chris is bold, descisive, and is a legend on the battle field those qualities alone make her the strongest candiate. I really thought Klaus was a great supporting strategist, up until Highland hired Leon Silverberg Klaus was the main strategist and even his own father looked to him for advice on the battle field. What I liked most about him is that he never underestimated his competetion and always looked foward to a challenging opponent. I think he will be a very promising strategist in the future with more experiance.

I too put Lucretia above the other strategists. A good strategist must disclose any information they choose, if the plan falters it still must appear that their idea was the best at the time and anything else would have resulted in something worse. Alot of people lable her as one who depends on luck to gain success but I have to disagree, I think that she had the knowledge of her surrounding areas which gave her an advantage when it came to strategy. The fact that she puts it right out that she will betray her employer if they deviate from the general goal says that shes absolutley trustworthy. Shes the one in charge of the descions and everyones life is in her hands, she just wanted to put it out there if anyone wants to do things that aren't for the good of everyone that she has no problem betraying. Its kind of like that movie Heat with Robert Dinero, "never get in any situation that you can't walk out in 30 seconds flat".
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The fighting 108
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby The fighting 108 » Tue May 05, 2009 2:18 am

Also when considering SV tactician Lucretia, one must consider that she probably had a HUGE advantage over any of the other Suikoden tacticians in the fact that she knew her enemies so well. Not only was she Marscal Godwin's tactician, but she was also his mistress. She was probably privy to every single thought that man had. She probably knew exactly how he was going to unite Falena and who he would take down to do it.

One must also consider that she was planning on joining this war even before it began as she KNEW this war would be coming for quite some time. If anything, she did seem a little disheartened that she only brought two years by having Arshtaht wear the Sun Rune. Even so, she had two years in prison to ponder how the war would play out. She probably had a strategy devised for every conceivable type of battle that Godwin and his officers would commit to with in Falena by the time the prince came to bust her out. In comparison, it sounds like most of the other Suikoden Tacticians weren't exactly planning on joining the fight till the main hero pops the question meaning they had no plans to set into motion right out of the gate. The fact that they achieved so much adds to their credit, but does not diminish Lucretia's in any way.

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby suiko2fan2 » Tue May 05, 2009 8:57 pm

The fighting 108 wrote:Also when considering SV tactician Lucretia, one must consider that she probably had a HUGE advantage over any of the other Suikoden tacticians in the fact that she knew her enemies so well. Not only was she Marscal Godwin's tactician, but she was also his mistress. She was probably privy to every single thought that man had. She probably knew exactly how he was going to unite Falena and who he would take down to do it.
.


Thats not completely true, all the tacticians in the game, had some benefit of knowing their enemy's way of thinking.

1. Matthew worked for the Scarlet Moon and its general for many years and knew how they all thought and opperated, and was prelude to all their weakness as such..

2. Shu was a student a Leon Silverburg and knew how he did business.

3 Caesar and Albert both brothers and students of the same style.

4. Cray, was Eleoner's former student, so she knew him as well

So. yes, Lucretia knew the Godwin, but so did every other tactican know there opponent.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Icegryphon » Tue May 05, 2009 10:40 pm

Shu didn't study under Leon Silverburg, he studied under Mathiu Silverburg. All he did to combat Leon was know that he had "read the book too many times" meaning he came up with an unconventional strategy to combat him.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Matt620 » Mon May 11, 2009 8:09 pm

Well, the supporting strategists, are, in fact, students. Cius and Lelei, further, had been studying for less then two years, and wouldn't be very accomplished to begin with. Agnes was also Elenor's caretaker more then she was her pupil.

Lucretia was also actually not Marscal's mistress. People merely mistook her for one. Oboro's detective thing states this. She showed everyone up when she showcased her skill.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Belcoot4 » Tue May 12, 2009 4:40 pm

Does everyone forget about Klaus? For pure support I think Klaus is the most efficient out of all other supporters in the other games. First and formost hes very intellegent and never underestimates an enemy. He also respects his competition wheather it be war or a sport he still is humble enough to aknowledge his enemies' prestige. General Kiba, a well respected warrior and his father, also looks to him for advice on and off of the battlefield. So I'm hoping this gives him some more juice I want to know what people think.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Vextor » Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm

The whole "Lucretia was Marscarl's mistress" thing is just a rumor said by those who didn't like how
Godwin brought a foreign woman into his close circle (she actually was just a strategist for him, not a mistress. Marscarl was pretty much devoted to his wife).
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Chifuku_Star » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:07 pm

I'd say that the quality of supporting strategists really peaked in Suikoden II for me. Shu had both Apple and Klaus on his side, come on. Personally, Apple is probably my favorite since we see her grow from this spiteful, but incredibly loyal girl, to a young woman who has brains but doesn't have the confidence to lead, to finally tutoring a Silverberg. All the while, she never gives up on her loyalty to Matthiu, which makes her even more admirable. I definitely think Apple has the potential to be the main strategist, and part of me wishes she had been the Tenki star in III over Caesar. Klaus, like many others have said, was very intellectual and didn't have the cockiness to assume he was always superior.

Lelei and Cius were jokes. They were body guards and weren't meant to be anything more imho. I think Agnes is better than them, but still a little forgettable. She was given the responsibility of planning on of the final battles, just like Shu had Apple lead the army in the final attack (that made me so happy).

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby avenger » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:11 am

ok here's a fun thread.. let's see.. supporting strategists.. this is bringing back memories from romance of the three kingdoms as well... Ma Liang, Xun You oh sorry,, we are in suikoden.. ok..

suikoden 1. supporting strat.. was apple no? she didn't do much in that game so poor quality. BUT SHE WAS JUST LEARNING.
suikoden 2 uh, well apple again in training.. how long did she need to train anyway?
suikoden 3, finally apple lead role...wait no, not again... this time she helps a young punk.
sigh..... you know i think she had enough training and she should have lead....
suikoden 4 well supporting strat? uhhh wasn't it Lino's daughter? or was it Agnes? any one was pretty helpfull i think they both did a job well done..
sukoden 5 who was supporting Lucresia? Lelei? these two ladies well.. i won't say anything. lelei did her best and i don't really think she failed in lelcar. it was just hell there and she did what anyone would do.. but Lucresia i'm sure would have done much better had she been there. but you can't be in two different places at the same time...

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Antimatzist » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:39 am

[quote=avenger]sigh..... you know i think she had enough training and she should have lead....[/quote]
I think Apple was just not interested in leading. I think she's a better teacher than a leader on her own

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby avenger » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:55 pm

youre' right however i kinda feel bad for her always missing out. she can deliever a killing blow we have seen it. so she should start thinking a like a lead strategist, besides she'll make more potch. who wouldn't want to make more money? her i guess...some people just want to be a second in command....

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Matthew McDohl » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:46 pm

I think Apple is probably the best supporting tactician...I mean she is really the only one in all the games who ever really did anything. In S1 she didnt do much, but she was what 18 or so...if that. Then in S2 she helped try and defend the Merc. Fort and did so against Jhee. Then after that she did fairly well all the way up to the end. Klaus kind of steals the show after he joins, but I think he was more of an afterthought of Kiba.

The best strategist I think was Shu, he was just bold in his actions and didnt really hesitate at all. I only played S5 once(currently replaying S2). I dont remember much about Lucretia...so I cant say much about her...

Also, I think Mathiu was an exceptional strategist... sure some of his plans were kind of bland and the whole Sanchez thing, but I dont think he ever really failed at anything except when fighting Teo the first time, right?

I think the worst strategist was Flik...when he decided to attack Scaleticia Castle... :lol:

The 3rd one is kind of a mess, but I hated taking orders from Cesar...his smile just really pissed me off...haha
Plus, I think Albert was the more assertive strategist in that game more than anyone else, and he resembled that star better than anyone else in that game.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby RVallant » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:05 pm

KFCrispy wrote:i think Lucretia depended way too much on luck, and on top of that, she didn't bother to explain her plans or tactics to Prince, so it didn't help him make decisions. for instance, when you have to choose to flee HQ or stay, she could just say "I sent Georg to free the dragon horses so the Dragon Cavalry Knights should be able to support us soon--fleeing will buy time and reduce casualties."
Instead she just says it's a better idea to flee.
Then of course when attacking Sol Falena, she risks the entire fleet/army, betting that the beavers would be able to re-activate the flood control mechanism.

Many strategists in this game series don't say what their plan is until last second, when they are about to try the tactic... is this really a good tactician idea or is it just Konami's attempt to keep things suspenseful as a game...


If you follow Sun Tzu's Art of War, the perfect plan is one that is never revealed until it's executed thus inspiring both in the troops and the generals.

But yes, the leader of the army should be told at least in private what the plan is. With Lucretia at times it feels she's doing the leading, you're just another pawn of hers.

I disagree with the luck sentiment though, I mean, it's obvious enough about the debris on the riverbed if you take into consideration the history. As Lucretia's been in the "slammer" for a while, she's had nothing to do but review geography, historical notes and so on and so forth. Wouldn't be a stretch for her to think that far ahead especially if she figured Godwin would move for the Sun Rune again eventually anyway.


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