The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
suiko2fan2
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The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby suiko2fan2 » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:43 pm

So over my Christmas break and i thought it be fun to have a Suikoden marathon and play all 5 games and tactics back-to-back, anyhow as i was playing I notice something rather sad as the series has progressed the supporting strategists have been become rather ignorant and silly. They have become more like personal attendants or servants to the chief strategist.

For example, Both Salome and Klaus were a great strategists in there own right. they never had 'Silverberg' training, yet both were head strategists and 2nd in command of there own army (Zexen Army and 3rd Highland Army) and were able to lead their armies to many victories and a few defeats(of course they're not chief Strategist for a reason :)). We saw Apple's progression from a girl to woman, and she got to be pretty good for a supporting strategist. Then there was Leon Silverberg, though a supporting star strategist is arguable the best strategist who has or ever will live in the suikoverse. But by the time S4 and S5 role people like Tanya, Agnes, Cius, and Lelei, whom i would not trust to lead their way out of the paper bag, much less a whole army into battle. They are more like crappy side kicks designed to make the chief strategist look better. They have no real thoughts of their own, heck even child Apple from S1 could probably best all four of them working together ..seriously..lol. Anyhow, i certainly hope Konami get there act together for Suikoden 5 and produces some more interesting and more higher quality supporting strategists who could challenge the Chief strategist alittle and not be their maid servant.

Loose ends: to those who like too and probably will nitpick, yes i know Albert was the supporting strategist in S3 Star of destiny wise, but you never got to play with him in the main game, Salome was more feeling that role. however Albert is great in his own right only supporting more point for the degradation of supporting strategists. Also, don't let this turn into a popularity contest or who is everyones favorites, or endless thread about who is the best, there are other posts for that..i am merely trying to point of the fact that in general overall the quality in the supporting strategists is sadly going down as the game series continues......
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby RangerDeon » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:42 pm

Lelei annoyed me. ..

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby patapi » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:02 pm

I have had my suspicions earlier, but with the advent of strategist trios like Elenor/Agnes/Tanya and Lucretia/Lelei/Cius in the latest two installments in the series, it seems that beyond the role of Tenki star as the main strategist of the series, the Chifuku and Chikai duo serves little more than the "groupie" characters who provide supporting roles in relation to the former.

Let's look at the earlier games then:

In S1, Leon Silverberg's apparently brilliant legacy aside, in this war he was still a supporter to Mathiu. Apple's role is obvious here.

In S2, both Klaus and Apple served no more than as plot devices to develop and emphasise Shu's superiority complex throughout the game. Enough said here, it's too in-your-face to ignore.

I wouldn't discuss S3 because it's messed up. First, they had an enemy strategist claiming the Chikai star. Because of this, Salome was put aside into a new star outside the above three. Uh.

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Geddoe 2099 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:57 am

I still say Lucretcia Merces is the best thus far.

Yeah... I do agree that the 2nd strategists definitely are lacking. But then again... that's why they are second. But for Suikoden 2 and 3, for at least 3, Apple should have been the lead tactician.

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Iku » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:22 pm

i completely agree i mean apple was much better then caeser why did they let a little kid like him tell them what to do when there was a perfectly good stratgist right behind him! i know apple wanted him to learn and stuff but is a war really the right place to do it! a wrong disision on his part could have killed lots of people, seems a little irresponsible! :wink:
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby mhatter106 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:19 am

apple had no leadership ability though. which one coudl argue is more important than actual strategic talent.

Iku wrote:i completely agree i mean apple was much better then caeser why did they let a little kid like him tell them what to do when there was a perfectly good stratgist right behind him! i know apple wanted him to learn and stuff but is a war really the right place to do it! a wrong disision on his part could have killed lots of people, seems a little irresponsible! :wink:

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Iku » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:16 am

but they had leaders in chris, lucia, bazba, etc, the stratagist's role is to tell them what they should do in a battle / war, not to necessarily to lead! anyway id say even Apple has more leadership qualities then Caeser! He seemed a little too young/ immature/ jealous of his brother to be a capable stratagist, at that moment in time!
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby mhatter106 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:53 pm

Iku wrote:but they had leaders in chris, lucia, bazba, etc, the stratagist's role is to tell them what they should do in a battle / war, not to necessarily to lead! anyway id say even Apple has more leadership qualities then Caeser! He seemed a little too young/ immature/ jealous of his brother to be a capable stratagist, at that moment in time!


the strategist still needs enough presence to inspire and convince the tenkai though. if you wre army leader and apple came and mumbled somethign under her breath to maybe try and do something, i feel like youre less likely to take her advice then caesar who maybe was young, immature, and jealous, but was confident and cocky which probably would give a feeling of more confidence in taking his advice.

i liked caesar.

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Iku » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:30 pm

we've seen Apple lead in s2 so we know that shes capable of it and its not exactly like Apple is timid, shes just polite, which would probably earn her respect among the Zexans and the Harmonians. Also if a little loud arrogant kid started ordering me around id be abit miffed to say the least, but i don't really like Caeser and im a huge Apple fan so im probably talking crap >_<
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby jonathan_priest » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:38 am

Geddoe 2099 wrote:I still say Lucretcia Merces is the best thus far.

Yeah... I do agree that the 2nd strategists definitely are lacking. But then again... that's why they are second. But for Suikoden 2 and 3, for at least 3, Apple should have been the lead tactician.


No, Lucretcia was a walking plot device. She had mastery of all segments of the environment, even over those who knew the area better. Raftfleet's defense before they joined is a prime example.

As for S3, there's a lot wrong with this game in strategy. I think Konami simply ran out of ideas. I mean, the 108 stars are meant to save the world, and yet four people trying to destroy it are Stars of Destiny. Makes no sense. Ceasar was a lousy strategy, simply fortify the gates and wait for reinforcements, but Apple was not a strategist by S3. At this point, she had found her true calling as a talented historian. I don't think she'd be much of a strategist at this point. Agree with Salome though, he was a strong strategist.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:47 am

Caesar was the catalyst in developing the strategic and political means to protect Budehuc. He sent Juan to Brass Castle to inform Salome, planned his own escape, and was able to provide for Budehuc's defenses until his political scheme unfolded... all in one shot.

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mio » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:48 pm

Lucretia lacks character. The fan was made to add spice but clearly failed.

if i could describe Lucretia in one word i would say she is "bland"

-Lelei's matching uniform not only with Cius, but also with Godwin soldiers didn't add to her frail character

Elenor was a drunkard, but we really never get to see her full prowess when it comes to strategy fights.

but still Elenor had some spunk and i had fun listening to her dialogues

-Tanya and Agnes were kinda like a groupie fan of a Strategist who barely proved her name as a Silverberg /sigh

Caesar's dumb smile annoyed me, if it were a smirk, it would indicate confidence in the field of strategy

for an all-text game, character has to be more emphasized since voice acting is not there

-Apple was overall the same with who she was in Suiko 2 even after 15 years. if she has grown more sour or bitchy due to her failed marriage (attitude like Elenor) i would have loved her in this game

Shu may not be a Silverberg but has thumps in his executions

By thumps i meant his decisions will give you goosebumps

-Apple is messed in between an assistant/apprentice and a vague admirer of Shu which would constantly pop questions in your head, (Are they together "together" or...?)
Its very interesting as it makes you suspicuous of every event concerning the two

its been ages since i played suiko 1 so i barely remember Mathiu and Leon

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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Chaco » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:35 am

we've seen Apple lead in s2 so we know that shes capable of it and its not exactly like Apple is timid, shes just polite, which would probably earn her respect among the Zexans and the Harmonians. Also if a little loud arrogant kid started ordering me around id be abit miffed to say the least, but i don't really like Caeser and im a huge Apple fan so im probably talking crap >_<


I agree with Iku actually, Apple should of been the lead, I think the only reason she wasn't in the right star spot on the tablet of destiny. However, if I had to chosse between Apple and Ceaser to take orders from I'd pick Apple.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Belcoot4 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:11 am

I like Lucretia the best out of all of the strategist. First shes undenyably attractive. Yes, shes brutaly bland but I believe thats a quality that successful strategist face. Show no emotion, have a poker face, know whent to play dumb, no whats at priority, etc. I must agree though Cius and Lelie or probaly the worst supporting strategist in all of Suikoden.
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Re: The Lack of Quality in the Supporting Strategists

Postby Mikain Clan King » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:05 am

I understand how having a pokerface and everything works, but the only actual time you would ever need it is if your in the middle of the battlefield against the other head strategist, but its right for a charater in the role of strategist. And yeah I would've picked Apple too, we probably all would.
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