Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
Denjo

Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Denjo » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:33 pm

First off, I wasn't sure whether to put this here or not, since the rune itself isn't exactly vital to plot, but oh well.

Anyways, I remember reading through the Romance of Three Kingdoms a few years ago; I saw the word "Eightfold" pop up in a battle and I was instantly reminded of Suikoden. Granted, its in a much different context, but perhaps theres some sort of legends mixed together? Both Suikoden and Romance are of Chinese culture are they not?

So I decided to explore into it anyways...

In Romance, "Eightfold" refers to an army formation but each "gate" represents something. I was wondering if this may at all tie in to something from Chinese culture and help explain what exactly Yuber's rune may be.


Evidence
Here's the segment I refer to: Volume 4, Chapter 113, page 2047 (I am sure there was another before this but I couldn't find and forgot to mark the first time. I believe the other version had different elements of 8 as well.)

"Relying on the eightfold order of battle he has learned from Kongming, Jiang Wei deployed the pattern of Heaven -- Earth -- Wind -- Cloud -- Bird -- Snake -- Dragon -- Tiger. "

Analysis
And then it goes on to explain how using that formation, the general was able to mimic his opponent's maneuvers. This makes me think perhaps Yuber has some power of mimic thus the similarity to Pesmerga or such (just one guess) or perhaps he's not summoning monsters with his power, but simply drawing a "copy" ?

Or... perhaps theres some deeper meaning behind a certain eight elements, whatever they may be.

Evidence
Another thing I encountered during my search was in Volume 2...

"...one for each set of oracular lines in the Book of Changes, divided into eight groups of eight."

Analysis (I have no clue, anyone have suggestions?)
This isn't about any "eightfold" specifically but does match the definition of eightfold. I imagine the Book of Changes is only mentioned for fantasy reasons or such but does anyone know how it may relate to Chinese culture mythologically? Maybe it holds some key to the magic number of eight.

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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Chaco » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:21 am

Wow!! This is really cool. It does seem like the two tie together. And I like the first two elements "Heaven-Earth...".
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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:17 pm

the Eightfold Rune in Suikoden is probably related to the Buddhist Eightfold Path, not some war tactic. The True Runes are bigger than concepts of war..

Denjo

Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Denjo » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:25 pm

Yes, but Yuber (along with the rune) only appears with every war which is one reason why it stood out for me. But thank you, I'll try and look into the Buddhist path to see if I can dig out anything.

Edit:

Here's some info on the eightfold path of Buddhism.
Taken from http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html
"The Noble Eightfold Path describes the way to the end of suffering...
It is a practical guideline to ethical and mental development with the goal of freeing the individual from attachments and delusions; and it finally leads to understanding the truth about all things."


This may actually go well considering Yuber is often in theories of "Dharma" is it? Sorry for mistaken spelling. Something to do with the end and his connection to Pesmerga -- but that's another topic.

So perhaps this Rune acts as a guardian of some sort in the road to heaven or life beyond. When Yuber summons, perhaps its those who reached through this path.

Only problem I see, is the rune is suppose to be ethical, and Yuber is well... not. Could be that the rune wasn't suppose to belong to him?

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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby IamMe » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:17 pm

Wow, that'd actually be pretty interesting if the whole Yuber/Pesmerga arc turned into something along the lines of Yuber stealing the eightfold rune from pesmerga/pesmerga's home etc... it would actually make a bit more sense than most yuber/pesmerga theories floating out there. Interesting stuff, I love when people research the names behind runes and such, a lot of the times it really opens up insiteful information

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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Wolkendrache » Sat May 31, 2014 6:44 am

Eightfold in Japanese is 八正, the Buddhist Eightfold Path is 八正道. 正 means "order"/"arrange", as for meditation one must arrange arms and legs properly to attain order of the mind or whatever. The same probably goes for the example about battling: the troups must be arranged properly, maybe in 8 segments in this case.

The problem is, 正 is not used in the name of the rune, the rune is called 八房の紋章. 八房 was translated as eightfold for some reason. 房 has several meanings: house, room, lock (of hair), tassel. Unfortunately my Japanese is too bad to make research, to check if there is some philosophical concept behind 八房. Moreover 八房 is read "hachifusa", but 正 cannot be read as "fusa" afaik.

So in the end, it seems the hachifusa rune is still a complete mystery...
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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby tovath » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:32 am

I heard once that the rune is based on the Elric book series.
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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Antimatzist » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:39 pm

tovath wrote:I heard once that the rune is based on the Elric book series.

Partially true. In Moorcock's books, the struggle between Chaos and Order is a recurring theme. The symbol of order is simply an arrow (and honestly, I've never seen a picture of it), but the symbol of Chaos comprises eight arrows in a radial pattern. This symbol is very well known, especially to those who play the tabletop game Warhammer, because it's used as the symbol of Chaos there as well.

But from then, it's a mashup we see in Suikoden.
Yuber himself claims to be a bringer and warrior of Chaos.
His rune is called Eightfold Rune - fitting with the 8 arrows of the symbol of chaos.
The Noble Eightfold Path is a principal teaching of Buddhism.
The Dharmacakra is an important symbol of Buddhism, but of course has nothing to do with Chaos. It's a wheel with eight spokes, every spoke representing one of the eight elements of the path.

So basically, the only thing Chaos and Budhdism have in common is the number 8. Maybe it has a hidden meaning - Murayama being a big fan of billard?

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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:43 pm

You seem to have overlooked my above post.
I still fail to see the connection to Buddhism, because it seems to be a misconception. I just hope that someone can clear this up...
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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:19 am

I asked on tumblr, and theirstar answered:

You all might say that, I don’t. The kanji is the exact same as Yatsufusa, a dog from a Japanese novel who, long story short, is killed, along with a maiden, after a human dude decides to back out of an award promise. Eight beads are left behind which soar away, representing the eight virtues of Confucianism. These beads then reincarnate as eight samurai, all of whom have the character for “dog” in their names.

[...]

I use Eight Section Rune personally.

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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:51 am

Thanks! And yes, "Eight Section Rune" is a better direct translation, although "Eightfold" is acceptable, because the 8 virtues of Confucianism and the Buddhist Eightfold Path is somehow linked. But I never heard the name 八房 "yatsufusa" or "hachifusa" (which would be "bafang" in Chinese) in connection with Confucianism. On the other hand 八正 "hasshou" (meaning "eightfold"), is a part of Buddhism, but it's not the name of the rune.
The eight virtues of Confucianism are: Filial Piety, Brotherhood, Loyalty, Trustworthiness, Etiquette, Righteousness, Integrity, Shamefulness. And again, Yuber is the exact opposite of them.
In the Suikoden novel, Confucian virtues are the highest ideals. The heroes mostly kill persons who offended at least one of these virtues.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

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Re: Eightfold Rune: What is the mystery behind it?

Postby Jack of All Trades » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:43 am

I like the idea that the Eightfold Rune is linked to highest Yang numeral, eight. My idea is that the Eightfold Rune is actually linked to Yang as an internal energy source and that the Ninefold Rune is linked to Yin since its highest numeral is nine. Unbalanced Yang energy perfectly describes Yuber's actions.


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