The White Saint Rune? Was'nt that the rune of the Unicorn Sigfreid? I think certain people or creatures can be born with runes.
I may be alone on this but I kinda figured when the true runes created the earth that all the runes were just there. i.e. When the true water rune made lakes and stuff taht you could simply find water runes in those lakes and the rest were made from those. Deserts/Volcanos : Fire, Mountains/Fields: Wind. You got me on lightning though lol.
Do you know what I mean, or am I mad
PSX Emulator Questions are here, if you have problems. Ask and hopefully I can help. Formerly known as Seifer by the way.
Sniper_Zegai wrote:The White Saint Rune? Was'nt that the rune of the Unicorn Sigfreid? I think certain people or creatures can be born with runes.
I may be alone on this but I kinda figured when the true runes created the earth that all the runes were just there. i.e. When the true water rune made lakes and stuff taht you could simply find water runes in those lakes and the rest were made from those. Deserts/Volcanos : Fire, Mountains/Fields: Wind. You got me on lightning though lol.
Do you know what I mean, or am I mad
I know what you are getting at, but I won't go into details. I am pretty sure there is someone that will though.
Something else I was actually curious about too, you know that the Sun and Night rune have runes that only have a quanity of one, Dawn, Dusk/Twilight, Star rune. This is kind of far-fetched and probably would've been discovered already if such a thing existed, but we have lesser runes and true runes, what if there was a middle class? Wouldn't that be Star/Dawn/Twilight runes? Also, why are the elemental runes the only ones that have more powerful versions of them. Oh yeah, the condemtion rune, from the rune of punishment, is that the only one in existence, or is it not known? Maybe it's like this...
Lesser class Runes: Fire, wind, water, earth, lighthing, darkness, ressurection, blinking, shield, etc.
Middle class Runes: Star, Dawn, Dusk/Twilight, Thunder, Rage, Flowing, Mother Earth, Cyclone(there are more of the higher elementals, just hard to find them)
Higher Class Runes: The 27 true runes
And one more quick question, what the elemental sword runes? I heard someone, sometime ago that it could be possible that they are derived from the black sword rune, but I somehow doubt that.
I know what you mean. The darkness rune in Suikoden 2 from the Soul Eater from 1. I think has more to do with the creators of the game wanting to make use of the former spells so I definetly think that the sun/dawn/twilight runes will definitly make an appearance in a lesser form. Thanks for the response btw eternal when I thought about it seemed like a stupid idea. I hope future Suikodens drop on this issue and sort out how the runes came to be.
PSX Emulator Questions are here, if you have problems. Ask and hopefully I can help. Formerly known as Seifer by the way.
When Viki sneezes, she blinks, she is not summoned because no one is there calling her to that destination. She simply warps through space.
And I personally seriously doubt that the Blinking Rune is a derivative of the Gate Rune. My main argument to the contrary is that all True Runes aside from the True Elemental Runes only possess one lesser rune. This has been a constant throughout the series. Another discrepancy I would have is that, in my opinion, the Blinking Rune has absolutely nothing to do with time and the Gate Rune has no effect on time either. If you recall, the Gate Rune combined with the power of the 108 Stars of Destiny and the Soul Eater to bring Gremio back.
I will describe what I perceive as happening in that situation, which is actually supported by much of the Suikoden Community. The Gate Rune opened a door in time, leading to the world connecting to Gremio the moment he was taken by the Soul Eater, the power of the 108 Stars of Destiny was used to cancel the Soul Eater's consumption of Gremio's soul and Gremio was allowed to pass through the door back to the world of the living. Well, at least that is how I would explain it. Note, that Gremio had no idea that so much time had passed and he was taken just before his demise. The Gate Rune did not influence time, it simply manipulated the doors between the worlds and allows for the communication and passage of things between the worlds.
Now, the Blinking Rune does have similar properties, but it simply distorts space and the dimensions, where as the Gate Rune gives access to the worlds but does not control what goes on inside the worlds. It is simply a door, but the Blinking Rune seems to possess the ability to tap into space and maneuver objects, people, etc. through it, and in fact manipulates the space within the dimension. I hope that wasn't too confusing.
As for the nature and lesser runes, Sword and Shield formed heaven and earth and 27 shattered shards created the True Runes we know of today. I would suggest that it is faulty to think that the existence of water is simply the result of the True Water Rune. The True Water Rune governs the existence of water, but I would say it would be very problematic if the bearer of the True Water Rune controlled all water in the Suikoden World. The Elemental True Runes, much like the other True Runes give meaning to things that exist naturally in the Suikoden World. Death and Life occur naturally, but it would be false to suggest that every life and death is directly related to the Soul Eater, or at least I believe that is true.
So, when we discuss fire runes being present in a volcano and water rune being present in a lake, I would say there is more chance to find such runes in areas of that sort, but I believe it is simply a product of the energy dispersed by those particular True Runes as they were manifested.
The power of those True Runes define fire and water and allow bearers to manipulate their properties and characteristics. If True Water did not exist I would say that water would not cease to exist, but the runes that allow the manipulation of those properties would simply fade away along with water magic. Remember, the True Runes are magical and sentient beings, although they are likened to the gods of the Suikoden World, they are not the Sword and Shield or Darkness which would essentially be the creators.
And the idea of lesser or middle class runes is pretty straight on in my opinion aside from the fact that the Dawn and Twilight are not middle class runes. They are special runes along with the Bright Shield and the Black Sword Runes. Their powers are unique therefore they are in a class of their own and are thus considered special.
Please look at the In-Depth True Rune thread for further detailed discussion on lesser true runes. But, continue to find how I would class runes.
So, I would classify runes as thus:
Higher Class: 27 True Runes, which I would divide into three subdivisions
Unique/Special: Dawn, Twilight, Bright Shield and Black Sword
I get what you are saying The Prophet. Still, don't you think it is a little too convenient that she pops up exactly where she is needed? I don't believe that it has much to do with a true rune, but I believe that it is her star that does this, but I believe that I may be reading too much in this.
I think I get what you are saying about the Gate Runes abilities. That it serves a connector of worlds and allows for transportation and communication between worlds and time as well, but here were confusion between us is. You don't believe it influences those worlds. I don't either, but I do believe , and I believe that you do too, that the rune is able to summon creatures from those worlds as seen in Suikoden I when Windy summoned that army to fight against your forces and Leknaat sends that army away with her Gate Rune piece but with the aid of the Dragon Rune. I see that as a specific type of manipulation. It just manipulates the specific thing that is being summoned, but it doesn't manipulate the worlds as a whole. The same with time. It can open a door between times summon particular things but not influence the whole time line.
I believe that you hit the nail on the head The Prophet with your rune classification. Which brings to mind a rune that you missed and that is the Pale Gate Rune. Like you said, Suikoden only has one rune in each level of the hierarchy. For example the True Fire Rune is a true rune, next down is the Rage Rune, and below that is the Fire Rune. I believe that the Pale Gate Rune is what I would call an Upper Tier Rune, or what you would call a Middle Class Rune. This means that it is possible for another rune to be born from it and that rune is the Blinking Rune. The Pale Gate like the Blinking Rune is able to pull things from different plans of existance. As for the teleportation, I not able to explain that as of yet, but what do you think about this much?
you can learn more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.
I don't consider summoning a kind of manipulation. Summoning invokes passage and is a calling. The Gate Rune opens the doors that keep the worlds separate and allow from the beings existing in those other worlds passage. It does not manipulate those things within those worlds. It simply allows them the ability to access the Suikoden World.
Now, the benefit of having the Gate Rune is that it has the ability to Open and Close. Just as Windy opened the gate to allow her monsters to access the Suikoden World, Leknaat used her half of the Gate Rune to close the gate combined with the Dragon Runes power. No manipulation because those creatures don't belong to the Suikoden World and were simply trespassing in the first place.
There are constraints for the Gate Rune, which have, in my opinion, very little to do with time. Time has no contraints. It could fast forward, it could rewind, or it could stop entirely grinding everything to a standstill. The Gate Rune and the Blinking Rune have no such capability. The Gate Rune does not open doors between time, per say. It opens doors between worlds. If the Gate Rune could open doors between time, then Leknaat could go back in time or forward in time at her leisure, but there is simply no evidence of this. Gremio's body was more than likely sent to the World of Emptiness upon his demise and the Gate Rune simply opened a door to this world so that Gremio could pass through back into the Suikoden World.
And like I stated, all True Runes aside from the True Elemental Runes have only been seen as being able to give birth to one lesser rune. These True Runes don't have a middle class, they go from Highest Class to the lowest class. There is simply no evidence to support the Blinking Rune being a descendant of the Gate Rune. Gate Rune magic is blue, where Blinking Rune magic is yellow. One summons monsters while the other morphs space pulling items out of thin air, which is not the same as I explained before. They just don't mix in my opinion.
Correct me if Im wrong guys. But does'nt the Gate Rune give the user the power to travel to far and distant places as well as summon creatures and people from other dimensions? I mean Leknaat clearly has the power to teleport and she is immortal but there is no reason she cant simply travel back in time to do her days work in the other suikodens?.
If you've alreadyn covered this then Im sorry. It may be a little embarassing on my part but you kinda lost me lol.
PSX Emulator Questions are here, if you have problems. Ask and hopefully I can help. Formerly known as Seifer by the way.
As I stated before, I too also think the blinking rune is derived from a true rune not yet discovered. The gate rune simply connects dimensions, the blinking rune and it's parent probably distorts it. I don't know if the gate rune actually allows you to teleport, however it might give you the ability to transfer to another plane of existence, since you connect the gates of dimensions/worlds, you should be able to go through them as well.
The blinking rune distorts this, as explane before it doesn't summon, it pulls. I still believe that it creates a wormhole of some sort, so that Viki is able to transmit to several different time periods.
As for the three rune classes, wouldn't the star rune be in that special class too then? I believe it is the only one in existence, ofcourse I could be wrong about that. I just find it odd that the elemental runes are the only ones that have beefed up versions of itself.
Last edited by EternalOnslaught on Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Teleportation is not an ability distinctly specific to the Gate Rune. There are plenty of characters that can teleport and a few that manage to do so without even bearing a True Rune at all. It is a magical ability based on a high degree of mastery over sorcery. Crowley could teleport, Sera could teleport, Yuber can teleport, Luc can teleport and that's just to name a few. The Gate Rune does not enable the ability for teleportation.
And if Leknaat could travel back through time, I am sure she would have by now. It just isn't possible for her.
THe Night Rune is actually one of the 27 True Runes.
Well, I am torn about how to classify the Star Rune, it should be a unique type, but it cannot be classified as such because it does not seem to be similar to the class of the Dawn, Twilight, Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes. It also is weaker in power compared to those, as well. So, it seems to be the derivative of a True Rune, I am leaning towards the Night Rune, but I am not too sure about that either. Suffice to say, I am stumped. Technically, it should go in a class of rune by itself until more is known about it, but for now I will leave it in middle class until we get more information about it.
I fully understand it now. Sorry for dragging this out for so long.
The Bright Shield, Black Sword , Dawn, Twilight Runes were not born in the same way as the Star Rune was or many of the other runes The Prophet put on the Middle Class list. The Star rune is known as the child of the Night Rune. At least I remember reading some where that this rune was a child of the Night Rune. Meaning it was probably formed in a way similar to the way we said earlier. However, it could have been made specifically by the Night Rune with a specific purpose and a specific bearer.
Like I said earlier, the Bright Shield, Black Sword, Dawn, and Twilight runes were born differently than most other runes. The Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes, in my opinion, were not born in a way similar to any at all, rather they are entities created to represent the "Beginning" by the Rune of Beginning. The Sword and Shield shattered each other creating the world and the shattered pieces the 27 True Runes. The bearer of these two runes must fight against each other and the surviving bearer takes the other rune and both runes, having completed their purpose, form the Rune of the Beginning.
The Dawn and Twilight Runes also have significantly different births when compared to other runes. And, in a way, they the same as true runes. Before you bite my head off, please hear me out. The 27 True Runes was the shattered shards of the Sword and Shield. That is the dividing factor here. Two of the true runes, the Sun and Night Rune, initially were connected to each other. The Night Rune turned into a sword and severed its bond with the Sun Rune and going on its way. The shards from this severed bond formed the Dawn and Twilight Runes. They are essentially part of the Night and Sun rune and can be considered the same as these two true runes. Which is probably why having these two runes together around the bearer of the Sun Rune keeps the bearer from going insane. This is an extreme I know. I haven't considered this for too long, but I think it makes some sense.
you can learn more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.
The only problem is that the Bright Shield and Black Sword may not be THE Sword and Shield discussed in the Creation Myth. More than likely, they are simply meant to symbolize the actual Sword and Shield. My main support for this is the fact that the Sword and Shield clashed and shards from each created the 27 True Runes. Now if they created the 27 True Runes, wouldn't there be 29 True Runes instead of only 27? Basically, I am pointing out that the Rune of Beginning was created in this clash, as well, which means it cannot be the actual Sword and Shield of the Creation Myth.
And I am not going to bite your head off. You are correct, there are unique runes that have a closer relationship to actual True Runes than the other descendants. The Bright Shield and Black Sword are actually the components necessary to construct a True Rune, so they are certainly unique. The Dawn and Twilight Runes certainly differ in the aspect as they were never meant to exist, whereas the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes existed naturally. The Dawn and Twilight Runes contain aspects of conjoined True Runes.
They make up a portion of the aspects of the Sun and Night Rune when they seperated. They are the components of their merger which was left behind upon their severed ties. So, no, they are not very similar to True Runes at all. They are left overs. Residual aspects never meant to exist, but serve an important function of acting as a small substitute for the Night Rune's place next to the Sun Rune. I speculate that when the Night and Sun Rune come together again that they may even cease to exist, but unfortunately Night and Sun can never be joined again.
but unfortunately Night and Sun can never be joined again.
Where does that come from? I've been absent for a while, has there been official statements concerning the fact that the Sun and Night rune cannot be bound together anymore?
My guess is that when the Night and Sun rune were together they were still 2 separate True Runes. There has been nothing said about their powers being conjoined. They are just two complementary aspects of reality. If they were ever conjoined it was probably just a symbolic thing. Nothing to do with their power.
But that's just speculation on my part, of course.
EDIT: After clicking submit I remembered that Night stayed with the Sun Rune because it was 'unstable' when alone. That's why the Night rune created the Twilight and Dawn rune when he left, so that the Sun Rune would remain under control.
Wraith wrote:EDIT: After clicking submit I remembered that Night stayed with the Sun Rune because it was 'unstable' when alone. That's why the Night rune created the Twilight and Dawn rune when he left, so that the Sun Rune would remain under control.
is this official? is a interesting info, it gives sense to many coments of the game ( zerase and jeane coments for example )
