Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
Quing
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Re: Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Postby Quing » Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:51 pm

I disagree. I think that Jowy, Culgan, and Seed are quite possibly the only group that did not betray Highland as a country. Jowy saw that Luca was going to assassinate Agares, but he saw that Luca would be a horrible ruler, and as such, he fell in with Luca so that he would have a better chance to assassinate him in the future and rid the kingdom of a bad ruler. While Riou, Nanami, Kiba, and Klaus undoubtedly wanted what was best for the kingdom and fought towards that ideal, they all betrayed Highland along the way. Note that after the game is over, Highland ceases to exist as a country. Jowy's plan was not only to rid Highland of Luca, but to have Highland win the war in the process. Culgan and Seed, being both loyal to Highland as a cultural group (as are both Jowy and Riou), and as a nation side with Jowy rather than Riou. If Riou had won, it would have destroyed Highland as a country (as it did), and if Luca had acheived his ideal, Highland would have been destroyed as a culture, being reduced to a barbaric people. Jowy was not betraying Highland.

LanceHeart
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Re: Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Postby LanceHeart » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:43 am

Jowy's actions had two goals throughout the entire story.

The first is that he wanted to save his country from falling into ruin. By serving under Luca, he knew he was ideally placed to get close enough to Luca in order to succeed in his "betrayal" and have Riou kill him. While he did kill Agares, it would have been the eventual outcome of Luca's war: Agares would have become a casualty of his son's folly sooner or later. Jowy most likely saw this and took advantage of that in order to both rise in Luca's trust and put himself in the ideal position for his second goal to take place: marrying Jilia.

The second goal is basically this: Jowy was looking for power. It was likely the curse of the Black Sword, but it's a fact that every single action Jowy did led him to obtain more and more power, eventually to the point where he was at the head of the Highland Army in order to mirror Riou's leading of the Allied army.
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jonathan_priest
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Re: Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Postby jonathan_priest » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:06 am

I disagree on your point that Jowy was trying to save his country. I always got the impression that Jowy betrayed Jowston because of their ineffectual leaders who only bickered amongst themselves and attempted to increase their own holdings. heh, if he thought Jowston's leaders sucked, he should have seen Zexen's. :roll:

As for Kiba, in the game, before Luca's death when Kiba was used to draw Luca into Shu's ambush Kiba and Luca have words, and ultimately stated Argres was his true lord and master, and Luca was an imitator to his greatness. It wasn't so much a matter of betraying Highland, its that he simply couldn't serve under Luca.
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Paler than Moon
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Re: Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Postby Paler than Moon » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:46 am

It depends on how you define "betraying" really. Jowy fights because he wants to end the war. He said so that if one of the Highland or City-State is still there, there will be new wars in the hands of future leaders (tho I think it's just the way it is, you can't really prevent war forever). He wants Highland and City-State stays under one banner so that children like Pilika can live happily without having to feel the burdens of war.

Kiba and Klaus switches side because a) Agares is dead b) if Luca wins, more City-State people will be killed and thus Highland will be known as a ruthless kingdom, ruled by a mad prince who only lusts for blood, Highland will never be the same. Also, I think he feels what the other SoD feels about Riou, that he can actually end this war.

About killing soldiers from your own country, I believe that every person must realize that in war you would have to kill people and thush the act of killing should teach you the meaning of life. So, even if Kiba and Klaus killed so many Highland soldiers, they're killing them because it's necessary to end the war (unlike Luca who kills for fun). Seed and Culgan, Jowy, Riou, everyone fight for this one reason: to end the war. It's just a matter on who do you think have the most power to end the war. I think Kiba and Klaus think that the CIty-State have more chance.

And I don't think Kiba and Klaus would be spared if they go back to Highland. Luca is not a general who knows the value of his subordinates. He kills his own men without thinking about loyalty factor. Kiba and Klaus can be called a traitor, but atleast they fight for what they want and to me it's not betrayal, it's a beautiful thing.

As of Jowy, his "betrayal" to Riou is also what makes him a good man. It's not easy to betray people or things you love but Jowy, Kiba and Klaus did that and they bear the burden too. Jowy could just fight alongside Riou till the end, it would be harder for the Alliance Army to destroy Luca.
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KFCrispy
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Re: Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:20 am

i think you guys missed the fact that Luca had intended on getting rid of Kiba and Klaus. when they're brought to North Window, a messenger of Luca's immediately provides a letter signed "King Luca" bidding them goodbye. Luca probably thought Riou and gang would kill them for him; he knew Kiba and Klaus were highly loyal to Agares and would not be able to trust them.

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Mio
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Re: Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Postby Mio » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:53 pm

Enough with the "Kiba and Klaus' betrayal is not justified"

as it is clearly justified already

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Mikain Clan King
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Re: Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Postby Mikain Clan King » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:53 pm

....Anyone else thinking that you start off on highland side?...raised in Highland territory?
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Mio
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Re: Kiba Windamier Wrong Choice?

Postby Mio » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:36 pm

am i to assume that you wanna reason tath since Kiba and Klaus were raised in Highland territory, they shouldn't have sided with teh Unification army?

Kyaro (right?) was Highland territory, both Riou and Nanami were raised here

and if you were to see with your own eyes what Luca Blight truly is, a blood thirsty beast who only care for bloodshed whether its his own people or the enemy, can you serve under him?

Kiba did not want to usurp the throne, (like Jowy did, plus you need a Silverberg to pull tat off)

He wanted to free Highland from the menace that is Luca...

and as fate presented the opportunity to do so in the light of Riou's proposal

Kiba staked his honor and pride just to protect the land he loved so much

He even died for this cause

pretty heroic from this point of view eh?


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