The powers of the True Water Rune and other runes.

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
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son_michael
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Post by son_michael »

MatildaWhiteKnightLeader wrote:"he did not have the power to stop him, even without the TER, luc would have won"

Umm, Luc stated that he and Geddeo are equals after Luc failed to obtain the TLR by himself. He needed Sarah's magic power with the True Earth Rune in Combination with his True Wind Rune to obtain Geddeo's True Lightning Rune. After that, Luc could have killed Geddeo or do whatever he wanted with him.

Okay I dont remember this at all, I remember geddoe fighting yuber and then luc stepped in and OVER POWERED geddoe and decided to leave

this was the first meeting

In the second meeting, luc was there to take geddoes rune but he could'nt and am I the only 1 that remembers that luc was SURPRISED? Luc was able to take sasarais rune away with Only his true rune{It dosent matter how he did it to sasarai, the point is he did it with his true rune and nothing else} So luc expected to be able to take geddoes rune too, he couldn't take it because geddoe had mastered his true rune and wasnt in the same mental position sasarai was in, but I dont think luc thought geddoe would have that much control over his rune AND I think luc believed that he could remove the true rune because of his superior magic prowess. the container that luc had was only supposed to CARRY the runes to the alter where they would power the cindar ruins to destroy luc's rune, but luc ADJUSTED his plan and instead used the container as a way for sarah to control the true earth rune that was inside of it, so luc bassically came up with a plan b at the last minute OR he had that plan ready in case he wasn't able to overpower a true rune bearer on his own

so, while all true runes are equal in power, I think the bearers magical prowess can be a deciding factor in overpowering other bearers and I believe luc had this advantage over geddoe but not enough of an advantage to force the rune out of him without geddoe being in a weak mental state

Does anybody here understand what I'm saying and does anybody agree with me?

I feel preety strong about this
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Post by Jowy Atreides »

Actually, it does matter how Luc took Sasarai's rune, because it shows that he needed some sort of distraction in order to take his rune. If Luc was truly above Sasarai, I don't think he would've planned on telling Sasarai about their true identity and taking his rune when he was in a weakened state like he was.

Keep in mind that Sasarai also has mastery over his rune, just like Geddoe does, since he was personally made to hold the True Earth Rune.
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Angelis_Taleria
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Post by Angelis_Taleria »

Also, the containers had nothing to do with Sarah's ability to control the True Runes. It was her natural ability that enabled her to use the runes without attatching them to her body.
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son_michael
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Post by son_michael »

Jowy Atreides wrote:Actually, it does matter how Luc took Sasarai's rune, because it shows that he needed some sort of distraction in order to take his rune. If Luc was truly above Sasarai, I don't think he would've planned on telling Sasarai about their true identity and taking his rune when he was in a weakened state like he was.

Keep in mind that Sasarai also has masery over his rune, just like Geddoe does, since he was personally made to hold the True Earth Rune.
what I said was,Luc removed sasarai's TER with a single True rune, so its possible to do it without 2 true runes, so it dosen't matter how luc took sasarai's rune because I was just trying to point out that luc did it with 1 true rune

Luc is stronger than sasarai, the evidence can be seen in suikoden 2 when sasarais TER dosent activate in the face of lucs power, Luc is stronger than sasarai because of leknaat. Geddoe is most likely as strong as sasarai, all 3 have mastered there true runes, Luc is stronger than both of them because of leknaat's guidance, otherwise he would be equal to the both of them. Luc's power is NOT strong enough to force other true runes out of there bearers, unless there will falters like sasarai's did.

when I remember scenes from suikoden 2 and 3, I come to the conclusion that luc is more powerful than both sasarai and geddoe
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Post by Chris_Lightfellow »

when I remember scenes from suikoden 2 and 3, I come to the conclusion that luc is more powerful than both sasarai and geddoe
I disagree that Luc is more powerful than Geddoe. Luc was only able to take Geddoe's rune with the help of the TER, and he also said that Geddoe's rune was as powerful as his when he failed to take it.
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3RW!N
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Post by 3RW!N »

son_michael wrote:what I said was,Luc removed sasarai's TER with a single True rune, so its possible to do it without 2 true runes, so it dosen't matter how luc took sasarai's rune because I was just trying to point out that luc did it with 1 true rune

Luc is stronger than sasarai, the evidence can be seen in suikoden 2 when sasarais TER dosent activate in the face of lucs power, Luc is stronger than sasarai because of leknaat. Geddoe is most likely as strong as sasarai, all 3 have mastered there true runes, Luc is stronger than both of them because of leknaat's guidance, otherwise he would be equal to the both of them. Luc's power is NOT strong enough to force other true runes out of there bearers, unless there will falters like sasarai's did.

when I remember scenes from suikoden 2 and 3, I come to the conclusion that luc is more powerful than both sasarai and geddoe
I dont understand your point dude???

The game clarity state that luc wasn't sure about defeat sassarai all by him self, thats why he need another strategy and thats why he need confusse sassarai for take the rune.

And whit geddoe, how can you said that luc is more strong that geddoe, when luc clarity state from his own mouth that the two of them have the same power.

and when luc defeat sassarai in suiko2, any of the two have the mastery of their runes at that moment, in this part of the history is obiusly that luc is more strong, but remenber that 15 years pass and that their powers are not the same's of before, sassarai cuold become more strong than luc now or the two of then have the same power, but the thing is that luc doubt that he can defeat sassarai in a clean combat.

what all this state, is that luc is not more strong that geddoe or sassarai, but is clear that he is more cunning.
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Post by Jowy Atreides »

I think the element of surprise must also be taken into consideration when talking about Luc defeating Sasarai in Suikoden II. From Sasarai's point-of-view, some guy that looked exactly like him came out of nowhere and attacked him with a True Rune. In that situation, he was probably too flustered to do much of anything, let alone hold his own against Luc. There has never been a situation when both of them were fully prepared and aware of each other, and then fought. It happened once in Suikoden III, but it was a physical duel, not a magical one. Actually, I wonder that the duel between Sasarai and Luc would be called. I mean, they used the same basic physical commands, but they weren't using weapons, they were firing magic 'n' stuff.
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son_michael
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Post by son_michael »

3RW!N wrote:
son_michael wrote:what I said was,Luc removed sasarai's TER with a single True rune, so its possible to do it without 2 true runes, so it dosen't matter how luc took sasarai's rune because I was just trying to point out that luc did it with 1 true rune

Luc is stronger than sasarai, the evidence can be seen in suikoden 2 when sasarais TER dosent activate in the face of lucs power, Luc is stronger than sasarai because of leknaat. Geddoe is most likely as strong as sasarai, all 3 have mastered there true runes, Luc is stronger than both of them because of leknaat's guidance, otherwise he would be equal to the both of them. Luc's power is NOT strong enough to force other true runes out of there bearers, unless there will falters like sasarai's did.

when I remember scenes from suikoden 2 and 3, I come to the conclusion that luc is more powerful than both sasarai and geddoe
3RW!N wrote:I dont understand your point dude???
3RW!N wrote:The game clarity state that luc wasn't sure about defeat sassarai all by him self, thats why he need another strategy and thats why he need confusse sassarai for take the rune.
luc had planned on taking sasarai's rune all along, when luc approached sasarai he knew he was gonna have no problems taking the rune, luc clearly was superior, he didn't have to come up with another strategy, he planned to shock sasarai from the start

3RW!N wrote:And whit geddoe, how can you said that luc is more strong that geddoe, when luc clarity state from his own mouth that the two of them have the same power.

I dont remember luc saying that he and geddoe have the same power, I remember geddoe fighting yuber and then luc puts an end to it by stopping geddoe with his power, geddoe was completley overpowered. Then when luc met geddoe for a second time, luc had geddoe on his knees but luc couldn't remove his rune, so the TER was needed,this scene shows me that luc was more powerful than geddoe but regardless did not have the power to remove his rune because geddoe's will was strong, unlike sasarai's will

it was very hard understanding your post, you should work on your grammar



Jowy Atreides wrote:I think the element of surprise must also be taken into consideration when talking about Luc defeating Sasarai in Suikoden II. From Sasarai's point-of-view, some guy that looked exactly like him came out of nowhere and attacked him with a True Rune. In that situation, he was probably too flustered to do much of anything, let alone hold his own against Luc. There has never been a situation when both of them were fully prepared and aware of each other, and then they fought. It happened once in Suikoden III, but it was a physical duel, not a magical one.

Well dont forget that sasarai had seen luc before there fight in suikoden 2, and he was trying to fight off lucs true rune with his and his wasn't working, it could be true that the element of surprise wavered sasarai's courage and so he could'nt use TER properly, allowing luc to devastate sasarai's forces with TWR. I personally think luc is more powerful than sasarai because of leknaat's training
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Post by MatildaWhiteKnightLeader »

In the game, Luc clearly said he and geddeo were equals. Geddeo had the TLR longer than Luc had his True Wind Rune.

Also, when Jimba was dying he told Luc that he had the True Water Rune for around 70 years compared to Luc's 15-35 years?(not sure). So he basically told Luc that Luc was a rookie. hehe

The Luc vs. Sasari duel was simply the Last Duel of the game and Sasari didn't have possesion of his True Earth Rune at that time. The final outcome is still the same regardless of winning/losing theduel. what did you expect out of 2 mages dueling each other? Sure they can start whacking each other with magic staffs but that would look hilarious. Perhaps you were expecting the Gandalf vs. Saruman duel from Lord of the Rings?

Edit:Somehow y-a (as in you) got translated to yes in the post so i just put "you" instead.
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Post by 3RW!N »

3RW!N wrote:The game clarity state that luc wasn't sure about defeat sassarai all by him self, thats why he need another strategy and thats why he need confusse sassarai for take the rune.
Son_Michael wrote:luc had planned on taking sasarai's rune all along, when luc approached sasarai he knew he was gonna have no problems taking the rune, luc clearly was superior, he didn't have to come up with another strategy, he planned to shock sasarai from the start
exactly he planned this a long time ago, this show that wath I said is true, luc is not more strong is just more cunning.
Son_Michael wrote:I dont remember luc saying that he and geddoe have the same power, I remember geddoe fighting yuber and then luc puts an end to it by stopping geddoe with his power, geddoe was completley overpowered. Then when luc met geddoe for a second time, luc had geddoe on his knees but luc couldn't remove his rune, so the TER was needed,this scene shows me that luc was more powerful than geddoe but regardless did not have the power to remove his rune because geddoe's will was strong, unlike sasarai's will
if you dont remmenber this, is because you lose when geddoe and luc fight, if you win you can see how geddoe have luc in his knees, then he said that the two of then have the same power and he ask help to sara
Son_Michael wrote:it was very hard understanding your post, you should work on your grammar
well and with this, the english is not my original dialect, but I going to work in that, sorry :roll:
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Post by demon eye »

Here is the statement between Luc and Geddoe after the second time they battle in Mt. Senai (I believe that is the name) when Luc plans to take Geddoe's True Lightning Rune.

Luc (after he is beaten back, this fight occurs after you have chosen your Flame Champion and Geddoe volunteers to go to Lu Buque village): Impossible! (Luc is on his knees breathing heavily)
Geddoe (smirks and stands tall): Hmm, it seems our True Runes are equal. Give up you have lost.

It pretty much goes just like that. Then, Luc orders Sera to use the True Earth Rune he took from Sasarai to get the True Lightning Rune from Geddoe or whatever True Rune he may have been using. So, they are clearly stated as equals.

As for Sasarai, Luc could not have easily taken the True Earth Rune from him with out shocking him first. Luc knew this and planned for it. He states himself that he didn't plan to take on Sasarai that early, but he had to do so because things weren't proceeding as he planned. He knew Sasarai would have been tougher for him to beat without using a trick. He was also not so familiar with Geddoe and Wyatt so he thought he could handle those two alone.

And Sasarai had his True Earth Rune at the time that he dueled Luc in Suikoden 2. Sasarai was born with his True Earth Rune just like Luc was born with his True Wind Rune. They have had their True Runes all of their lives.
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