True Runes

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
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Juneve
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True Runes

Post by Juneve »

The very idea of the True Runes is what Suikoden is all about in my view of things.

It seems to be that a True Rune has one of 3 reasons for being.

The First is to allow something to exist. Dragons, Vampires, and other such "unnatural" things.

The Second is to have ultimate power over a specific thing. Fire, Earth, Water, Wind... those are the only ones I can think of atm.

The Last is to be a coin with 2 sides. Life & Death rune, Sword and Shield Rune, Order and Stagnation Rune, and Front and Back Gate Rune... although the Gate Runes might be under the First section... I don't know.

I will go ahead and say... I am not sure I have a real point. This is more of an observation. Doesn't seem to be a "plot discussion" anymore....

Anyways.... I think the Runes with 2 sides might be more powerful then the ones who have power over something. I also think the Runes with 2 sides might give the bearers less choices then the ones with a single reason.

It might be a give and take type thing... If you have a Dragon Rune you might be in complete control of your fate but not have to much "True Rune" power...

If you have the Fire Rune you have minimal control over your Fate and have a good amount of "True Rune" Power...

And if you have the Circle Rune you might have almost no control over your fate yet have as much "True Rune" power as you can get.
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Ced The Lad
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Re: True Runes

Post by Ced The Lad »

Juneve wrote:
The Last is to be a coin with 2 sides. Life & Death rune, Sword and Shield Rune, Order and Stagnation Rune, and Front and Back Gate Rune... although the Gate Runes might be under the First section... I don't know.
Sword and Shield are actually one rune. The Rune of Beginning. Same goes for the Gate Rune which is now split into halves.

I think the runes as a whole have equal power over one another. Although it could also be enhanced by the will of the bearer. This is evident when Riou's half rune went against Neclord's Moon rune.
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Post by Jewber »

well, at that point when it was Riou against Neclord it was Rious True Rune, Viktors Star Dragon Sword, Marleys Anti-vampire powers, and Sierra's control over the rune. But it DOES have alot to do with Will, like that whole thing in suikoden 3, if you want it, you CAN have it, it just wont come easy.
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Post by Jowy Atreides »

I think that Ced the Lad was talking about when the Bright Shield Rune resisted the curse of the Blue Moon Rune, not when the whole party fought Neclord.
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ced The Lad
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Post by Ced The Lad »

Precisely, that's exactly what I was talking about. All True Runes have equal power, but mastery is also a variable. This is the only case that both a half rune and a novice bearer gained the upper hand on a complete true rune and a bearer who held on the rune for over 300 years.
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Juneve
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ok...

Post by Juneve »

So if this is the only case then why did it happen? If all runes are equal how did Riou survive the attack?

Are you saying that a person who held half of a true rune and didn't even know what they was doing could over power a person who has held true rune for 300+ years?
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Ced The Lad
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Post by Ced The Lad »

As I said, it's the only exception that I can come up with in the grand scheme of things. We've seen Luc and Geddoe's runes match each other in strength, Windy unable to take Soul Eater, Jowy using up all his energy to hold back the Beast Rune, etc.

I can't exactly tell you how Riou did that, but it maybe his will to live and his will to protect Nanami overcame the curse.
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Juneve
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As you said...

Post by Juneve »

The reason Wendy could not take the soul eater is b/c half a true rune cannot over power a rull rune.

Jowy can match the beast rune b/c his half a rune is prolly about equal to the beast rune..

And the Luc and Geddoe thing is simple...

Luc is MUCH more powerful then Geddoe Right?... but as true runes, they are equal.

I dunno, but I think by this we can say... not all true runes are equal b/c we have seen some over power others and some prove to be equal.
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Post by adrich »

There are really too many factors to say with any certainty how True Runes match up against each other. You have to take into account whether the rune is full or halved, how long the bearer has possessed the rune, the bearer's natural magic and will power, the nature of the rune's power (active, passive, offensive, defensive, etc.), and the will of the True Runes themselves.
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Ced The Lad
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Re: As you said...

Post by Ced The Lad »

The reason Wendy could not take the soul eater is b/c half a true rune cannot over power a rull rune.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

Jowy can match the beast rune b/c his half a rune is prolly about equal to the beast rune..

This contradicts the first statement.

No it's not. He spent most of his life energy holding the Beast Rune back. As soon as Jowy would let his guard down, the gathered power of Beast Rune would annahilate everything. It took Riou and company to beat the incarnation. By then, though Jowy could still fight, he was dying in the end. Advantage, Beast rune.

And the Luc and Geddoe thing is simple...

Luc is MUCH more powerful then Geddoe Right?... but as true runes, they are equal.


No, they are equally as powerful. That's shown in Suikoden 3. Geddoe has been a bearer for a long time, (He's 112 years old) and Luc's rune is embedded in his soul which results in mastery of the rune. (Even if he's only 32) Sarah had to use the True Earth Rune to help Luc take Geddoe's rune

I dunno, but I think by this we can say... not all true runes are equal b/c we have seen some over power others and some prove to be equal.

Yes, complete runes are more powerful than halves, and all complete runes are supposed to be equal in power. Yet, the mastery of the bearer is a variable that needs to be counted. Why else could Ted command Soul Eater outside his body and Geddoe repelled Luc's curse?

Meanwhile, Tir had to power up Soul Eater through the course of the game, and Chris and Hugo couldn't stop their runes from being taken by ONE True Rune of equal power.

This is why I find Riou repelling Neclord's curse, unusual.
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Juneve
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ok....

Post by Juneve »

ok, so if a true rune is more powerful then a half rune how was Jowy able to hold back the beast rune?

And is it offical that all rune are equal in power... or is that an assumption.

I think there are to many things that happen in the games to say " all True Runes are equal in power "
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Post by Ced The Lad »

Hey again, Jeneve. ^_^

He was able to temporarily hold back the Beast Rune, but the Beast rune could take its sweet time. I suppose an analogy is needed. A bulldozer vs. scattered debris on the road. The Beast Rune is the Bulldozer, the debris is the Black Sword Rune. No matter how much debris is on the road, the bulldozer will get through it. It's just taking a longer amount of time than it should.

As for the "equal in power" tidbit, this was from a question and answer session by SARS. Since it meant to inform information about Suikoden, I'm sure he got it from official sources. (If not, then feel free to flame me all you want)
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hmmm.....

Post by Seink »

This is a very interesting topics, here's my view.All runes(which existed and appeared on people's arm) are equal.

The Rune of beginning.-Sword and Shield Rune:

Rather than saying that they are half or whole, let's use the entity concept. A person can have 2 or multiple assets - his personal and bussiness asset. However, the thing that separates the company and his personal asset is the entity.

My interpretation: Assuming that the elemental runes are 1 entity,Rune of Beginning = Person , Sword Rune = 1 Entity & Shield Rune = 1 Entity. In short, Shield Rune = True Wind Rune.

This can be further supported when we play the game. Riou has 4 lvls of Shield Rune spell and Luc has 4 levels of Wind Rune Spell.

The same thing applies to the Gate Rune. When the Windy is after Ted's Souldeater, it must be that Windy's rune cannot be taken by Ted's souleater.( or else, she would take a big risk of losing her gate rune instead of stealing the souleater.)Back = Souleater.

The tricky part is Leknart and luc. Leknart cannot stopped Luc because her rune is imperfect(this seems that they Leknart's rune is weaker.) However, it doesn't mean that Luc can take Leknart' Rune. If Leknart's Rune is truly weaker, then Luc can start off by taking Leknart's Rune and then swiftely take sasarai's, geddoes and the rest.....in this case, Front=Wind....the differences is the aptitude of the power and the conditions of the rune

This can also explain that while the Sword Rune (1 Entity) can hold offf the beast Rune(1 Entity) and Shield rune(1 entity) can repel Moon Rune(1 entity). However,some variable may cause the runes to fluctuate their powers. Certain runes need certain conditions to work effectively.

Beast Rune: Blood, blood and blood.

Beginning Rune: The point where the Sword battle against the Shield.in the end, the power of the Rune is strong enough to even save jowy.

Soul Taker: Kill people closes to you and the cause of their death.

Gate Rune:I am sure u need both of the bearer to uses's his optimal power. Rember at Luc's POV that he said that Leknart's rune is "imperfect" this means that he need windy's rune too to in order to maximize it's power.

Rune of punishment: Bearer's life

Elemental Runes:Well,i thnk this depends on the bearer's Will power. Remember how Luc steal Sasarai's Earth Rune by revealing Hiksuuk's devilous plan? This also explain that why Luc can't take Geddoe's Lightning rune at first.

And back from the story of darkness, i believe that they not mention that the sword and shield shattered into EQUAL pieces .

And i believe that the aptitude of the runes is different. Elemental runes are power with their own elements. The soul taker takes life, the beg. rune protects/destroys......Some runes are not meant to be physically superior, they influence othe stuff(like destiny and all that shoot...) but it doesnt mean that it is less powerful....

You also have to bear in mind that the chosen bearer should hav more power over those who steal it. (for example,if u give luc the soul eater, it would not be half as power as McDohl)

And i think that it'a also possible that Konami screw up some of their logic to make the game works...hahaha
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Post by SkyScorcher »

This is why I find Riou repelling Neclord's curse, unusual.
Well, you gotta also consider that the Bright Shield rune is a Highly defensive type rune... so even with Neclord's mastery over the Blue Moon Rune, his curse wasn't strong enough to get past the Shield Rune's Defense... (granted that Riou did pass out soon afterwards)
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Ced The Lad
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Post by Ced The Lad »

Yes, there are variables to be considered. However, if we don't consider that, supposedly, all True Runes are equal in power. This doesn't count the Bright Shield, Black Sword, Front, or Back Gate rune since they are different versions of halves.

Numerous times during gameplay, we find this to be true. However, those outside variables contribute a lot.
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