True Runes

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
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Stallion
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Post by Stallion »

I attribute a few things to how Riou could negate Neclord's attack, and most have been mentioned already.

WILLPOWER
Luc took Sarasai's True Earth rune by breaking his spirit and catching him off guard. A similar thing could be true of this battle between Neclord and Riou. Neclord would not have thought his enemy would be much of a challenge, therefore not concentrated too much on it. Riou however has many people to protect and the sheer determination to protect those close to him. This extreme willpower I think is one of the factors that allowed the scene to happen.

NEGATION
If the Bright Sheild was stronger it could have turned the attack around on Neclord. It did not do this but rather it just negated the attack thrown at it. This could be considered an equal battle between the runes, as neither rune really won. They just cancelled out.

BEARER
Neclord got his rune by stealing it. As he is not the rightful bearer, he does not have the affinity and control over it that one that is rightfully gifted a true rune. This is further shown when Sierra orders the rune to stop even though Neclord has had 300 years to master it.

Considering these three points together, I believe it is quite understandable how this scene can happen, and it does fit in with the equal power lore.

-------- SPECULATION -----------

Perhaps the Blue Moon rune is a half rune itself.? The Red Sun rune perhaps? That sounds stupid, but it has to be considered that the Moon and Sun are thought of as family in many religions.

Also the rune of the Night ( Star Dragon Sword ) is most probably a half true rune aswell. The rune of the Day will be somewhere I believe.

Have you ever wondered whether the rune of Night would have any magic attacks linked to it if it returned to a rune form..?
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Post by koriand'r »

I would say that the bright shield acted on its own accordance, riou certinely didn't understand its power but seem willing to act as a vessel and so in return the rune defended him?

There is talk that luc's rune is intertwined with his soul but if that's so does that mean he has always been the true wind rune as from what I'm hearing is that luc is more than a clone of hikuassak he seems to be a clone of that emtion and is yet the wind rune? *Perhaps hkuassak possesed more than one true rune before passing those runes down to the cloned hosts he produced?*
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Ced The Lad
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Post by Ced The Lad »

Stallion

I completely agree with you in this case. Those variables were exactly the reasoning I was searching for. Now I don't find that scene hard to believe. I wasn't inclined to believe it earlier, because I wasn't sure there were any other variables in that scene. But as Stallion has showed us, many things can account for it. Therefore, I withdraw my argument.

koriand'r
I would say that the bright shield acted on its own accordance, riou certinely didn't understand its power but seem willing to act as a vessel and so in return the rune defended him?
I'm not exactly sure it works that way. From what was discussed earlier, I think Riou unintentionally activated it with his willpower and not the rune, but this is debatable.

The second part of your argument isn't too quoteable, but I'll try to break it down. Luc has had the True Wind Rune all his life. It is, as you say, "intertwined with his soul". This results in the mastery of his True Rune at a reletively short amount of time.

True Runes have their own adgenda, but I don't think they have emotion. The only one that showed emotion was the Zodiac/Star Dragon Sword and he's only an incarnation of the Night Rune and not the Night Rune itself.

Hikusaak and Harmonia had 5 known True Runes that were somewhat in their posession. His Circle Rune, Luc's True Wind Rune, Sasarai's True Earth Rune, and the old Flame Champion's True Fire Rune before he took it back. The last one was the Beast Rune that Harmonia had before "giving it" to Highland. OF course, they didn't give it to Highland, the rune moved there of its own free will. Hikusakk has his rune, and we have seen only 2 clones, Luc and Sasarai. How they kept the other runes is still a mystery.
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Post by Wolfho9999 »

Didn't when Riou passout, didn't Jowy feel it happen. If so dos't not mean that the runes where still togather because Riou and Jowy are still friends.
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Post by Ced The Lad »

No. Since the runes together are one true rune, they have a special link that connects to one another. They have also been childhood friends which may have strengthened that connection.

Regardless, the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes are still parts of the Rune of the Beginning and not together at all.
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Post by koriand'r »

Ced The Lad wrote: The second part of your argument isn't too quoteable, but I'll try to break it down. Luc has had the True Wind Rune all his life. It is, as you say, "intertwined with his soul". This results in the mastery of his True Rune at a reletively short amount of time.

True Runes have their own adgenda, but I don't think they have emotion. The only one that showed emotion was the Zodiac/Star Dragon Sword and he's only an incarnation of the Night Rune and not the Night Rune itself.

Hikusaak and Harmonia had 5 known True Runes that were somewhat in their posession. His Circle Rune, Luc's True Wind Rune, Sasarai's True Earth Rune, and the old Flame Champion's True Fire Rune before he took it back. The last one was the Beast Rune that Harmonia had before "giving it" to Highland. OF course, they didn't give it to Highland, the rune moved there of its own free will. Hikusakk has his rune, and we have seen only 2 clones, Luc and Sasarai. How they kept the other runes is still a mystery.
Thanks for that piece of wisdom, it has helped to clear a few things, on the nature on true runes do all really have two basic sides. One side valuing order and the other valuing chaos? As I most admit I find that theory of true runes being categorised into supporting either order or chaos. True they were born out of sword and shield but surely that the theory of either them being order or chaos is a little vague if not oversimplified to a complex layout of power?
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Post by Archangelknux2 »

Wasn't the Soverign Rune (Barbarossa's Rune) a true rune? If so than HArmonia was in possession of 6 true runes because the the toran region succeeded from Harmonia.

ALSO is the Dragon rune still in possession of Milia? I thought i heard somewhere that Joshua took it back.
Last edited by Archangelknux2 on Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ced The Lad
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Post by Ced The Lad »

You are absolutely correct. I forgot about that particular True Rune. Harmonia did own it when Gregminster was Rupanda. Kranach Rugner then liberated the city and passed down that Rune (which was on the Dragon King Sword) down the family line.

As for the Dragon Rune, S3 says that Milia has it, but Recent publications state that Joshua has it. We have a saying around here that recent info is the official one regardless of contradictions. So I guess Joshua has it. It seems Konami can't make up their minds.
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Black Fang
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Post by Black Fang »

I think the runes as a whole have equal power over one another. Although it could also be enhanced by the will of the bearer. This is evident when Riou's half rune went against Neclord's Moon rune.
Precisely, that's exactly what I was talking about. All True Runes have equal power, but mastery is also a variable. This is the only case that both a half rune and a novice bearer gained the upper hand on a complete true rune and a bearer who held on the rune for over 300 years.
Well you have to remember that all the runes were born admiring Shield and Sword, therefore it wouldn't be crazy to say that the Bright Shield Rune on its own is simply stronger tha the Moon Rune. Your second argument seems to back me up here.

Another argument would be that runes CHOOSE their masters like the Bright Shield chose Riou, where as Neclord STOLE the rune, so maybe different people have different affinities with true runes, just like with normal runes.
Jowy can match the beast rune b/c his half a rune is prolly about equal to the beast rune..

This contradicts the first statement.

No it's not. He spent most of his life energy holding the Beast Rune back. As soon as Jowy would let his guard down, the gathered power of Beast Rune would annahilate everything. It took Riou and company to beat the incarnation. By then, though Jowy could still fight, he was dying in the end. Advantage, Beast rune.
Two things, you're missing here, one the beast rune was fed by Luca, therefor it grew in power to possibly its potential, where as Jowy already felt weak from previous incidents (you know how the rune ate at him and Riou at the same time), so I wouldn't underestimate his rune......on top of that, it wasn't a Rune against Rune fight.........it was a Rune agains a human with a Rune.........I think it'd be a different sotry if you saw a Giant Two-Headed Wolf Against a Giant Black Sword.
Yes, complete runes are more powerful than halves, and all complete runes are supposed to be equal in power.
Once again, I'll refer you to the fact that all runes are born adoring the Sword and the Shield, therefore it seems highly possible that those two runes are much stronger than any of the others, but I do agree with you about the mastery level........as well as the affinity theory.
I would say that the bright shield acted on its own accordance, riou certinely didn't understand its power but seem willing to act as a vessel and so in return the rune defended him?
I completelly agree with this point!!!
As I most admit I find that theory of true runes being categorised into supporting either order or chaos. True they were born out of sword and shield but surely that the theory of either them being order or chaos is a little vague if not oversimplified to a complex layout of power?
Maybe half adorned Bright Shield whilst the other half adorned Black Sword, hence Chaos and Order.............just and idea.

Btw, I wrote as I read so Stallion posted a few same things I was going to, but yea just further justification!
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Post by Asura »

I'd actually like to add here that I was under the impression that not only did Harmonia have the True Fire, but Thunder and Water as well.

If I remember correctly didn't the Flame Champion, Wyatt, and Geddoe go to Harmonia and take those Runes so they could protect the Grasslands?
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Post by Suikoman444 »

Yeah the true lightning rune and true water rune were stolen from Harmonia and then used in the first fire bringer war.
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Post by Ced The Lad »

Well you have to remember that all the runes were born admiring Shield and Sword, therefore it wouldn't be crazy to say that the Bright Shield Rune on its own is simply stronger tha the Moon Rune. Your second argument seems to back me up here.
It doesn't prove anything. The only thing I said was that mastery of a True Rune helps in strengthening a True Rune's power. With that said, there has been official information that said that all 27 True Runes are equal in power. It's been also proven that half runes are weaker than True Runes. Leknaat could not stop Luc because she had half a True Rune. Despite her 300+ years of mastery, she couldn't stop him at all.

If you take mastery into account, then yes, you may be right. However, you said that "it wouldn't be crazy to say that the Bright Shield Rune on its own is simply stronger tha the Moon Rune." which is not true because on it's own, the Moon Rune is more powerful. It don't see how being formed from Shield and Sword makes a difference. It only strengthens my argument. Shield and Sword tied in their battle. Regardless which runes were born from who, it indicates that all 27 are equal.

I will give you your point about the runes choosing the bearers. That could be an added variable, but I don't think it's a strong one. If they do choose who bears them, then wouldn't the Moon Rune have flown away from Neclord or something? Same thing goes for the first Flame Champion. He stole the rune from Harmonia, and yet the rune didn't seem to mind being held by him. I don't think runes really care about their bearers. So long as they have one. But still, it doesn't support your argument in which the Bright Shield Rune is stronger than the Moon Rune by itself. Affinities seem to be the cause.
Two things, you're missing here, one the beast rune was fed by Luca, therefor it grew in power to possibly its potential, where as Jowy already felt weak from previous incidents (you know how the rune ate at him and Riou at the same time), so I wouldn't underestimate his rune......on top of that, it wasn't a Rune against Rune fight.........it was a Rune agains a human with a Rune.........I think it'd be a different sotry if you saw a Giant Two-Headed Wolf Against a Giant Black Sword.
The sacrifice was needed to AWAKEN the Beast Rune and not make it powerful. Hence the Beast Rune's power can only be shown after a blood sacrifice. The power is more or less a set value. Jowy on the other hand has been holding that rune back at the cost of his life. For the Black Sword Rune to gain equal power, it had to drain Jowy's life. And for what? to buy some time until Riou and company can destroy it. The Beast Rune never faltered in Power.

Also, Jowy is a new bearer and the Beast Rune was moved to Muse as Luc said. Two "new" bearers, but the advantage still goes to the Beast Rune. Jowy managed to hold it back (possibly due to an affinity of some sort) but not without the cost of his health. As for Muse itself, the useage of the rune killed people but it didn't destroy the town at all.
Once again, I'll refer you to the fact that all runes are born adoring the Sword and the Shield, therefore it seems highly possible that those two runes are much stronger than any of the others, but I do agree with you about the mastery level........as well as the affinity theory.
The Black Sword and Bright Shield Runes are not true runes. They are components of one True Rune. the "Rune of Beginning". Unless they're together, they're only 2 half-runes that do NOT grant immortality. I already proposed my theory about the equal power of True Runes and the fact that Half-Runes are weaker than True-runes, so no explanation needed here.
I would say that the bright shield acted on its own accordance, riou certinely didn't understand its power but seem willing to act as a vessel and so in return the rune defended him?


I completelly agree with this point!!!
I agree to the point that Riou did not choose to do anything there. However, It seems unlikely he regained his composure inside his mind and said "I believe in you Bright Shield Rune. defend me". I believe he didn't do ANYTHING at all, and the Bright Shield Rune saved him out of nowhere.
Maybe half adorned Bright Shield whilst the other half adorned Black Sword, hence Chaos and Order.............just and idea.
Can't do that. Rune of Beginning. remember?

Suikosource: As for the jewels, they fell to the ground and became the True Runes--The runes that all other runes were born from.

All Runes are spawned from the original 27 True Runes that were created during the battle between Sword and Shield that created the world. This is a listing of all the true runes we have heard about.

If they were split up to begin with, it would be 28 jewels. Not 27.
[/i]
Asura wrote:I'd actually like to add here that I was under the impression that not only did Harmonia have the True Fire, but Thunder and Water as well.

If I remember correctly didn't the Flame Champion, Wyatt, and Geddoe go to Harmonia and take those Runes so they could protect the Grasslands?
Yes and no. Harmonia took over the nation that housed the True Lightning Rune. But before they could find it, Geddoe escaped with it. So it all depends on your perspective on the situation. It's technically Harmonia, but then again they never had a chance to claim ownership, so not really.

As for Wyatt and his rune, the Character list says he always had it. He didn't take it from Harmonia.

Edit: I knew I saw this somewhere.
suikox.com wrote:Is the True Water and True Lightning originally from Harmonia too?

True Lightning existed in the Grasslands based on the manga, but in Suikoden 3, Geddoe says that his homeland was destroyed by Harmonia, and all he was left with was his True Rune. Combining both theories, Geddoe may have received the True Rune in an area in the Grassland that was conquered by Harmonia before the 1st Fire Bringer War (which was an uprising against Harmonia who had about half of the Grassland under control). So the True Thunder Rune was not originally from Harmonia. The True Water Rune was probably noy in Harmonia as well, seeing that Wyatt Lightfellow--a warrior of Zexen origin--had it.
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Asura
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Post by Asura »

You know Ced, I think you and I are going to get along.

It doesn't prove anything. The only thing I said was that mastery of a True Rune helps in strengthening a True Rune's power. With that said, there has been official information that said that all 27 True Runes are equal in power. It's been also proven that half runes are weaker than True Runes. Leknaat could not stop Luc because she had half a True Rune. Despite her 300+ years of mastery, she couldn't stop him at all.
Call me a romantic of types, but I don't think that's why Leknaat couldn't stop him. Seems to me the Wind Rune had a death wish and was hell bent on getting it's way, so in a sense it wasn't so much Leknaat couldn't stop him, it was that the Wind Rune didn't want to be stopped, as is the nature of Wind.
I will give you your point about the runes choosing the bearers. That could be an added variable, but I don't think it's a strong one. If they do choose who bears them, then wouldn't the Moon Rune have flown away from Neclord or something? Same thing goes for the first Flame Champion. He stole the rune from Harmonia, and yet the rune didn't seem to mind being held by him. I don't think runes really care about their bearers. So long as they have one.
Actually, seems to me it's a "right place right moment" type of thing. The bearer is choosen, but sometimes the rune's fate isn't meant to be attached to the bearer. Case and point being Blue Moon, I don't think it had anything to do with who's rune was stronger, I think it had something to do with the fact the true bearer Sierra was there. If that fight had not occured, Tinto probably would have never joined the war effort, meaning Shield and Sword could never come to blows again.
The sacrifice was needed to AWAKEN the Beast Rune and not make it powerful. Hence the Beast Rune's power can only be shown after a blood sacrifice. The power is more or less a set value. Jowy on the other hand has been holding that rune back at the cost of his life. For the Black Sword Rune to gain equal power, it had to drain Jowy's life. And for what? to buy some time until Riou and company can destroy it. The Beast Rune never faltered in Power.
I have to agree with Ced here in that point for one reason, The Beast Rune was only active after Luca gave the town of Muse to the Beast Rune. One life verus a hundred at least? I'd say that Jowy was on the losing side of that fight, Rune or not. As for gaining equal power at the cost of the user's life? Well.....the Bright Shield helped it's rival in the sense that Riou passed out to.
Once again, I'll refer you to the fact that all runes are born adoring the Sword and the Shield, therefore it seems highly possible that those two runes are much stronger than any of the others, but I do agree with you about the mastery level........as well as the affinity theory.
Mastering an element? That ideal never sat right with me, seems to me this game is being controled by fate in the sense that it all seems like things are happening at random, but you also have to take into account how many things happened when the Runes "went out of control". Affinity in my view has little to do with it, look at Geddoe after all, hardly the Thunder type, or Luc, not as passing as a gust of wind. Though Hugo, passionate as a flame, and Chris as calming as water, but can be painful to stand in front of.
The Black Sword and Bright Shield Runes are not true runes. They are components of one True Rune. the "Rune of Beginning". Unless they're together, they're only 2 half-runes that do NOT grant immortality. I already proposed my theory about the equal power of True Runes and the fact that Half-Runes are weaker than True-runes, so no explanation needed here.
The question comes to mind however, if you give your life to the rune, will it reward you with the immortality of a normal rune? Jowy in the good ending, he lived because Riou decided to stop fighting him, maybe the runes are apart, but if the hearts are one the True Rune shows itself.
I agree to the point that Riou did not choose to do anything there. However, It seems unlikely he regained his composure inside his mind and said "I believe in you Bright Shield Rune. defend me". I believe he didn't do ANYTHING at all, and the Bright Shield Rune saved him out of nowhere.


Once again I wish to disagree (don't you ladies and gents hate me?)

I'll go with that, Riou didn't know what he had in his right hand, at the same time it wasn't out of nowhere. It says plainly, Shield and Sword HAVE to fight, if the vessal dies like that do you think the Sheild will get the fight it craves? I know I make it sound like it's no better then the Beast Rune, but at the same time, isn't every rune no better then the Beast?

Yes and no. Harmonia took over the nation that housed the True Lightning Rune. But before they could find it, Geddoe escaped with it. So it all depends on your perspective on the situation. It's technically Harmonia, but then again they never had a chance to claim ownership, so not really.

As for Wyatt and his rune, the Character list says he always had it. He didn't take it from Harmonia.
Ahhh, thank you for correcting my misunderstanding, I have nothing to add in that sense then.


To be plain about it, I think what people ignore is Luc's side of the story. He says the Wind Rune showed him a side of the future where it was all dead. Well, I don't think that was a future, I think that was the Wind influencing it's vessal in an atempt to destroy it and be free again, to me, Luc was not the ideal vessal.

I mean look at McDohl, he didn't seem the murdering, horrible person that would bear a rune like Soul Eater (Life and Death for you die hards). Though it made him take the souls of people very important to him, like his father, and I doubt he would naturally want power at the cost of his father.

As for runes that are halved, whole, or stolen, it's not a matter of mastery, or even how correct a person is for a rune, it's all leading to one thing, a single destiny. What that destiny is, that is unclear, maybe all 27 have an agenda that differs from one another, but it's clear that fate seems to play a role in the lives of those who have true runes, or those around those people.
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Ced The Lad
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Post by Ced The Lad »

You know Ced, I think you and I are going to get along.
Absolutely ^_^
Call me a romantic of types, but I don't think that's why Leknaat couldn't stop him. Seems to me the Wind Rune had a death wish and was hell bent on getting it's way, so in a sense it wasn't so much Leknaat couldn't stop him, it was that the Wind Rune didn't want to be stopped, as is the nature of Wind.
So what you're saying is that the True Wind Rune's will was greater than the powers of Leknaat and the Gate Rune. Which means that the Will of the True Rune is more powerful than Leknaat (Who is a 300+ year old sorceress) and one half of the Gate Rune. Which is basically what I've been saying about True Runes being more powerful than halves.
Actually, seems to me it's a "right place right moment" type of thing. The bearer is choosen, but sometimes the rune's fate isn't meant to be attached to the bearer. Case and point being Blue Moon, I don't think it had anything to do with who's rune was stronger, I think it had something to do with the fact the true bearer Sierra was there.


Ehh, I actually got off topic when I was saying stuff about how runes choose the bearers. I think I was going to talk about affinity, but as you can see, I butchered up that part. So I'll just leave that part alone to evaporate, heh.
If that fight had not occured, Tinto probably would have never joined the war effort, meaning Shield and Sword could never come to blows again.
Sorry my friend, I don't know what this is for. How does it fit to the argument? And the bearers of the Halves of the Rune of Beginning are destined to fight. It seems that the runes manipulate events in order to do such things, so one way or another, they'd have to fight. Which they did at Tenzan pass.
Mastering an element? That ideal never sat right with me, seems to me this game is being controled by fate in the sense that it all seems like things are happening at random, but you also have to take into account how many things happened when the Runes "went out of control". Affinity in my view has little to do with it, look at Geddoe after all, hardly the Thunder type, or Luc, not as passing as a gust of wind. Though Hugo, passionate as a flame, and Chris as calming as water, but can be painful to stand in front of.
This is challenging Black Fang's argument, so I'll let him take this one. I will say that I believe innate preference for certain elements is a talent to be born with. So it doesn't matter if people don't seem to fit or look like he/she fits the element. That's like saying all Fishermen are good with water magic. Storyline wise, fine, but I don't see how that can be an absolute truth.
The question comes to mind however, if you give your life to the rune, will it reward you with the immortality of a normal rune? Jowy in the good ending, he lived because Riou decided to stop fighting him, maybe the runes are apart, but if the hearts are one the True Rune shows itself.
Both halves are destined to fight. The reason Jowy is healed is because Rious challenged fate and didn't want to fight. This shows the true power of the Rune of Beginning. In this sense, Riou mastered the Rune of Beginning, so technically, he healed Jowy. The rune healed him, but not of it's own will.
Once again I wish to disagree (don't you ladies and gents hate me?)

I'll go with that, Riou didn't know what he had in his right hand, at the same time it wasn't out of nowhere. It says plainly, Shield and Sword HAVE to fight, if the vessal dies like that do you think the Sheild will get the fight it craves? I know I make it sound like it's no better then the Beast Rune, but at the same time, isn't every rune no better then the Beast?
When the bearer of one of the halves, die. The Rune will go back to its original True Rune form granting the bearer immortality. This finishes its task and yes, it will satisfy both Black Sword and Bright Shield. The runes are cruel, I agree. They play with fates. But I wasn't arguing about this anyway.
To be plain about it, I think what people ignore is Luc's side of the story. He says the Wind Rune showed him a side of the future where it was all dead. Well, I don't think that was a future, I think that was the Wind influencing it's vessal in an atempt to destroy it and be free again, to me, Luc was not the ideal vessal.
Yeah, I think he literally said that it was one of the POSSIBILITIES of the future. Basically he risked everyone's lives, killed himself and Sarah all to prevent the POSSIBILITY of that future to happen.
As for runes that are halved, whole, or stolen, it's not a matter of mastery, or even how correct a person is for a rune, it's all leading to one thing, a single destiny. What that destiny is, that is unclear, maybe all 27 have an agenda that differs from one another, but it's clear that fate seems to play a role in the lives of those who have true runes, or those around those people.
I'm arguing about the strength of the True Runes, and not their purpose in life. I think we're on two different pages, buddy. :D
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Post by Asura »

I'll make it brief this time Ced.
I'm arguing about the strength of the True Runes, and not their purpose in life. I think we're on two different pages, buddy.
Actually, to be frank I was just following in after you to give it a more romantic feel, half that stuff I didn't expect you, of all people, to answer to. But honestly? I'm arguing the same thing you are, just a little different angle.

See, you talk about raw power, where as I was trying to get to one thing in this grand scheme. Fate.

I'm not saying anything about one over powering the next in terms of Rune power (unless you count the whole 3 thing but another time) I'm saying that in the grand scheme of things a half can over power a whole if fate decides that's what needs to happen.
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