True Runes

Ced The Lad · Post by **Ced The Lad** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Yeah, I know you and I were somewhat on the same page, but I didn't want our arguments confused with each other. See you add the concept of Fate in all this. Yes, you are correct in everything you said. A lot of the stuff I replied to was (like you did to me) added comments. They weren't mostly counter-points.

The points that I did counter were because I wanted to reiterate the fact that disregarding affinity, mastery, bearer, etc. that True Runes are more powerful than Half runes. It wasn't really countering you, I just wanted it separate. Sorry if I seemed confrontational.

Asura · Post by **Asura** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:57 am

If you never confront someone it always makes for a boring debate. I was just making it breif for both our sakes really.

As for the mastery, affinity, bearer or what have you......Like I said, the only reason I disregard it is fate being on one side or the next. Honestly? Lenkaat probably didn't try all that hard to keep Luc there, seeing as how she can read the stars and predict the future.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:26 pm

I really haven't been keeping up with this arguement, since it's mainly just a quoting match.

But, I think Asura is talking about when Luc left whatever Leknaat's new residence is in S3, correct? She tried to stop him, and she probably would've stopped him if she had the full Gate Rune, which she does not.

He comments that her partial Gate Rune stands no chance against his True Wind Rune, if I remember correctly.

Asura · Post by **Asura** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:30 am

Actually Jowy, I'm using double talk in a sense. My latest add on to this debate was the fact Leknaat can see the future, and thusly why would she try so hard to stop Luc if she knew he was going to do, what he was going to do?

In the end it seemed like she wasn't that angry with him, even gave her forgiveness to Luc's spirit (and I think Sarah's) so that they could go on.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:35 am

If she can see the future, why did she even try at all?

Since she never reveals anything about the future, except for who the Tenkai Star is, can it really be said that she can see the future?

She never says anything important, except for very vague references to the future. She seems to be able to tell who will have an important future, but not much more than that.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:30 am

Leknaat could not stop Luc because she had half a True Rune. Despite her 300+ years of mastery, she couldn't stop him at all.

I will give you your point about the runes choosing the bearers. That could be an added variable, but I don't think it's a strong one. If they do choose who bears them, then wouldn't the Moon Rune have flown away from Neclord or something? Same thing goes for the first Flame Champion. He stole the rune from Harmonia, and yet the rune didn't seem to mind being held by him. I don't think runes really care about their bearers. So long as they have one. But still, it doesn't support your argument in which the Bright Shield Rune is stronger than the Moon Rune by itself. Affinities seem to be the cause.

Luc was MADE to fit in with the wind rune whereas Leknaat inherited hers from the village once it was destroyed. The rune is still just a rune, and as it seems to have a soul and ideas of its own as well as amazing powers, it seems it has no control over who owns it. What I mean is that in every even we've seen so far that includes rune exchange is always initiated by the runebearer, Neclord GIVES IT to Sierra, Ted GIVES IT to McDohl, Jowy GIVES IT to Riou......in every case, the runes are given as they are still only objects, and even if they have the power to influence human minds they can't stand up and walk away.

So in short anyone is able to control a specific rune, but those chosen by that rune are most likelly more compatible. As for the Bright Shield Rune being stronger than the Blue Moon Rune, well if official information says all runes are of equally power than there is no arguing against that.

The sacrifice was needed to AWAKEN the Beast Rune and not make it powerful. Hence the Beast Rune's power can only be shown after a blood sacrifice. The power is more or less a set value.

Yes a sacrifice of a DROP of blood is needed to awaken the rune, but not a WHOLE CITY of people. What official evidence do you have to state that the power of a rune is more or less a set value??? Anything Konami released I'm missing here?

Jowy on the other hand has been holding that rune back at the cost of his life. For the Black Sword Rune to gain equal power, it had to drain Jowy's life. And for what? to buy some time until Riou and company can destroy it. The Beast Rune never faltered in Power.

Like I stated previously, Jowy was weakened due to previous events and Riou's fights. The comment about Jowy giving his life to fill up the power of the rune is true but it contradicts your past argument that the rune powers were set, and as for the power of the beast rune never faltering, c'mon, where did the all powerful being go at the end of the game after Riou and 5 other guys beat the crap out of it??? My previous arguments weren't saying that the Beast Rune was weak without sacrificies, but rather that further sacrifices strengthen the already powerful creation.

Also, Jowy is a new bearer and the Beast Rune was moved to Muse as Luc said. Two "new" bearers, but the advantage still goes to the Beast Rune. Jowy managed to hold it back (possibly due to an affinity of some sort) but not without the cost of his health. As for Muse itself, the useage of the rune killed people but it didn't destroy the town at all.

Muse is no bearer, it has no life-force. The beast rune was acting of its own free will. Thats why it needed a blood sacrifice to awaken. And as for the runes, I don't see the slightest bit of damage to the Sword Rune. Thats what you should really be comparing the Beast Rune with.....not Jowy.

I agree to the point that Riou did not choose to do anything there. However, It seems unlikely he regained his composure inside his mind and said "I believe in you Bright Shield Rune. defend me". I believe he didn't do ANYTHING at all, and the Bright Shield Rune saved him out of nowhere.

Thats exactlly what I said. What I meant by Riou being a vessel was sort of like the outfit Spawn has (if you watched the movie or the comics), basically the bearer caries the rune and protects it and the rune protects the bearer in turn. The Neclord scene had nothing to do with Riou whatsoever except for his being there and carrying the main character in that certain event.

As for the jewels, they fell to the ground and became the True Runes--The runes that all other runes were born from.

All Runes are spawned from the original 27 True Runes that were created during the battle between Sword and Shield that created the world. This is a listing of all the true runes we have heard about.

All the runes we have HEARD about???? Are there more UNHEARD true runes????

I'll go with that, Riou didn't know what he had in his right hand, at the same time it wasn't out of nowhere. It says plainly, Shield and Sword HAVE to fight, if the vessal dies like that do you think the Sheild will get the fight it craves? I know I make it sound like it's no better then the Beast Rune, but at the same time, isn't every rune no better then the Beast?

I think you're putting too much emphasis on the battle between sword and shield here. Sure they carve to fight each other and that is what they do but they do not control fate. They fight with all their power to save their own ass and in the process the asses of Riou and Nanami. If Riou died, Neclord would take Shield (or one of those stupid zombies) and fight Jowy, because in the end someone has to win and someone has to lose, and that end is not predetermined.

To be plain about it, I think what people ignore is Luc's side of the story. He says the Wind Rune showed him a side of the future where it was all dead. Well, I don't think that was a future, I think that was the Wind influencing it's vessal in an atempt to destroy it and be free again, to me, Luc was not the ideal vessal.

Luc was MADE for the pure purpose to fit with the Wind rune. Maybe the rune was trying to change masters though out of pure boredom or something else.

I mean look at McDohl, he didn't seem the murdering, horrible person that would bear a rune like Soul Eater (Life and Death for you die hards). Though it made him take the souls of people very important to him, like his father, and I doubt he would naturally want power at the cost of his father.

He held too much crap supressed inside I'm suprise he didn't chop up everyone around him,

LOL jk......... then again......... Gremio...... heh.... anywayz, he didn't want the power and death of his power and the rune didn't take his father's soul until AFTER McDohl beat him. He fought his father for the future of the Toran republic and to beat a corupt empire not to feed the souleater.

As for runes that are halved, whole, or stolen, it's not a matter of mastery, or even how correct a person is for a rune, it's all leading to one thing, a single destiny. What that destiny is, that is unclear, maybe all 27 have an agenda that differs from one another, but it's clear that fate seems to play a role in the lives of those who have true runes, or those around those people.

You're a religious person, aren't ya???

This is challenging Black Fang's argument, so I'll let him take this one. I will say that I believe innate preference for certain elements is a talent to be born with. So it doesn't matter if people don't seem to fit or look like he/she fits the element. That's like saying all Fishermen are good with water magic. Storyline wise, fine, but I don't see how that can be an absolute truth.

HAHAHA, tanx for sticking up lol, but thats aite I can take this one. There has been no evidence of anyone MASTERING an element BUT if you look at rune affinities charts, you'll see that some characters do seem to be better off using certian elements. As for your theory of Geddoe hardly being a thunder type and Luc not passing as a gust of wind.....I think you're going in a wierd direction with that one. The true wind rune for example isn't looking for stallion because of his speed like the wind, there are other elements that come into play, in simpler terms the choices the game designers made. There is no reason for Luc to have such an amazing affinity or mastery of the wind rune but he does as the designers made it that way to fit into the story better. As for Ced's point with fisherment being good with water elements I fully agree. It would make it one of those cheesy games like pokemon where everthing in one area masters that element. Don't think we'd be on this board if that were the case.

When the bearer of one of the halves, die. The Rune will go back to its original True Rune form granting the bearer immortality. This finishes its task and yes, it will satisfy both Black Sword and Bright Shield. The runes are cruel, I agree. They play with fates. But I wasn't arguing about this anyway.

Where'd you get this lil juicy piece of info from??? Are you saying the Bright Shield would go to Jowy???? That would mean that Windy is still alive as Leknaat never got the full gate rune. Then again look at the Rune of Punishment, upon death it picks the next person to latch on to. Wouldn't the rune just go back to its crystal form and stay in that spot for Neccy to pick up?

Yeah, I think he literally said that it was one of the POSSIBILITIES of the future. Basically he risked everyone's lives, killed himself and Sarah all to prevent the POSSIBILITY of that future to happen.

Well if its a possibility of the future, is there also no possibility of that future happening even after the events in Suiko III?

Actually, to be frank I was just following in after you to give it a more romantic feel, half that stuff I didn't expect you, of all people, to answer to. But honestly? I'm arguing the same thing you are, just a little different angle.

Romantic???? Man I must be romantically blind coz I see nuffin romantic here. Anywayz I think we're all arguing the same thing with a different angle as we are all following the story, but we're all trying to make the pieces fit.

See, you talk about raw power, where as I was trying to get to one thing in this grand scheme. Fate.

You're walking on eggshells here. Fate isn't something that you can prove or truthfully deny in real life either. It is an unknown possibility and thus its not a solid tool to argument with.

I'm not saying anything about one over powering the next in terms of Rune power (unless you count the whole 3 thing but another time) I'm saying that in the grand scheme of things a half can over power a whole if fate decides that's what needs to happen.

Adding to my previous example, does fate have the power to decide like that??? Is fate an actual presance that creates and changes what it likes or was it a thread created by some other higher being? If fate is CERTAIN than your arguments hold true, otherwise the runes just fought with different criteria, such as affinities, mastery through experiance, and the possible threat of extinction ("when one is about to die, one would die to stay alive").

Btw, this whole fate argument is going to complicate things enormously!!!

If you never confront someone it always makes for a boring debate. I was just making it breif for both our sakes really.

So ya likes debates eh, LoL.......I'll try and keep ya interested then haha, hopefully we don't run out of material.....Suikoden is a big world heh.

Lenkaat probably didn't try all that hard to keep Luc there, seeing as how she can read the stars and predict the future.

She can see into the future but as how clearly it is still uncertian as a few times she admits herself that the future is clouded to her.

Actually Jowy, I'm using double talk in a sense. My latest add on to this debate was the fact Leknaat can see the future, and thusly why would she try so hard to stop Luc if she knew he was going to do, what he was going to do?

Refer to my comment above.

As a side note I'd like to appologise for the length of this post but I was away from internet for a week or so and you guys really like posting so there it is.[/i]

Ced The Lad · Post by **Ced The Lad** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:47 pm

No apology needed. heh.

Luc was MADE to fit in with the wind rune whereas Leknaat inherited hers from the village once it was destroyed. The rune is still just a rune, and as it seems to have a soul and ideas of its own as well as amazing powers, it seems it has no control over who owns it. What I mean is that in every even we've seen so far that includes rune exchange is always initiated by the runebearer, Neclord GIVES IT to Sierra, Ted GIVES IT to McDohl, Jowy GIVES IT to Riou......in every case, the runes are given as they are still only objects, and even if they have the power to influence human minds they can't stand up and walk away.

So in short anyone is able to control a specific rune, but those chosen by that rune are most likelly more compatible. As for the Bright Shield Rune being stronger than the Blue Moon Rune, well if official information says all runes are of equally power than there is no arguing against that.

Don't forget how Luc stole the runes from Geddoe, Hugo, Chris, and Sasarai. That was against the bearers' will. Not to mention that Luc was made house the rune and not be compatible with it. Ok, It was never my point to argue compatibility. My primary concern was to argue about the difference between half and True Runes, along with their power, by themselves. But you conceeded that last point, so that's fine.

Yes a sacrifice of a DROP of blood is needed to awaken the rune, but not a WHOLE CITY of people. What official evidence do you have to state that the power of a rune is more or less a set value??? Anything Konami released I'm missing here?

I withdraw this argument, because of something I read earlier. You're right, it gains power with the sacrifices, however I am not saying that rune powers are a set value. I am mainly implying that the True Runes are supposed to be equal in strength, so if there really is any "raising in power" done in any other true runes, in the end, they are all equally powerful.

Like I stated previously, Jowy was weakened due to previous events and Riou's fights. The comment about Jowy giving his life to fill up the power of the rune is true but it contradicts your past argument that the rune powers were set, and as for the power of the beast rune never faltering, c'mon, where did the all powerful being go at the end of the game after Riou and 5 other guys beat the crap out of it??? My previous arguments weren't saying that the Beast Rune was weak without sacrificies, but rather that further sacrifices strengthen the already powerful creation.

I gave you that argument already, but let me clear this up. The Beast Rune never faltered when Jowy was trying to hold it back. Jowy's life was being drained (which you agree) and the ONLY reason he held it back, was to let Riou and company beat it. That way, the energy and manifestation would be held back for now. Half a rune is not strong enough to challenge a True Rune. You need the power of the 108 stars and human choice to do it. Challenging Fate is the point of Suikoden after all.

Muse is no bearer, it has no life-force. The beast rune was acting of its own free will. Thats why it needed a blood sacrifice to awaken. And as for the runes, I don't see the slightest bit of damage to the Sword Rune. Thats what you should really be comparing the Beast Rune with.....not Jowy.

There is no need to compare the Black Sword Rune to the Beast Rune, because it's already been stated that the Beast Rune is stronger. It's a True rune, but for the sake of my argument, to further point out that True runes are stronger, I offer you two bearers. The Half Rune bearer (Jowy) continues to die while the True Rune bearer (Muse) continues to errr . . . live. Besides, since when did it ever say that inanimate objects can't be bearers? The concept of a life force is not needed in my argument because I'm comparing strengths of the True Runes and not the bearers. The only time I needed to use the bearer's strength was when I was trying to figure out how Riou defended against Neclord. But my main argument was always the same.

All the runes we have HEARD about???? Are there more UNHEARD true runes????

Obviously but it's plainly stated there that ALL 27 (Note there can be only 27, unless Konami kills the story. But they likely won't) True Runes are created during the battle that created the world. No exceptions.

Where'd you get this lil juicy piece of info from??? Are you saying the Bright Shield would go to Jowy???? That would mean that Windy is still alive as Leknaat never got the full gate rune. Then again look at the Rune of Punishment, upon death it picks the next person to latch on to. Wouldn't the rune just go back to its crystal form and stay in that spot for Neccy to pick up?

Whaa? What does Neclord have anything to do with this? And yes, my friend, if Jowy killed Riou, rest assured the Rune of Beginning would latch itself to Jowy, no doubt about it. If you need proof, go kill Jowy in Tenzan pass and watch Riou take the whole rune. That's the fate of the bearers of the Rune of Beginning.

The Gate Rune is different. It's meant to be one rune, but the "sisters" split it to hide from Harmonia. No information is known about its fate. We only know the fact that Konami changed its status to missing (Front) and with Leknaat (Back). They were great sorcerers, so they were able to unnaturally split it. But not without a cost; Leknaat lost her sight.

And as for the split runes of Beginning, SARS' Q and A faq says that when Jowy and Riou die someday, their runes will go back to Toto's shrine.

[/quote]Well if its a possibility of the future, is there also no possibility of that future happening even after the events in Suiko III? [/quote]

Yeah, that's the wonderful thing about possibilities. It may or may not happen. But don't be surprised if it acutally happens or doesn't happen someday.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:32 am

Heh, you'll have to xcuse me, but I'm kinda swamped with all kindsa work at the mo (for the past cpl of mnths actually) so my brain is working at 1/10th its normal capacity (if that), and I can't really remember what arguments we closed up.....heh

Don't forget how Luc stole the runes from Geddoe, Hugo, Chris, and Sasarai. That was against the bearers' will. Not to mention that Luc was made house the rune and not be compatible with it.

I was talking about use and strength of the runes, and Luc was made to house the rune as a PERFECT vessel for it (that includes compatibility) but like you said, this point is not what the discussion was about in the first place.

I withdraw this argument, because of something I read earlier. You're right, it gains power with the sacrifices, however I am not saying that rune powers are a set value. I am mainly implying that the True Runes are supposed to be equal in strength, so if there really is any "raising in power" done in any other true runes, in the end, they are all equally powerful.

Well as you stated before somewhere, there was OFFICIAL information that all runes were of equall power, so that CLOSES this argument.

You need the power of the 108 stars and human choice to do it. Challenging Fate is the point of Suikoden after all.

So you're saying that the 108 stars and the character of the person (Riou in this case) strengthens the rune? Even if it is a half rune? If that is the case than you just explained your original statement about how Riou beat Neclord.

Besides, since when did it ever say that inanimate objects can't be bearers?

Well it didn't, but if you look at it that way, the Beast Rune was the ONLY one to function in that way. Why don't we see the other runes act of their own free will? The real reason I think a rune can't be OWNED by an "inanimate objects" as you put it, since in this case Muse city itself has no life force, nor does it have magical foce (aka MP). Muse cannot COMMAND the Beast Rune to attack.

Whaa? What does Neclord have anything to do with this? And yes, my friend, if Jowy killed Riou, rest assured the Rune of Beginning would latch itself to Jowy, no doubt about it. If you need proof, go kill Jowy in Tenzan pass and watch Riou take the whole rune. That's the fate of the bearers of the Rune of Beginning.

Noooooooooooooooooooo. You missinterpreted here. What I meant was that if NECLORD succeded to kill Riou in that cave, does that mean that the rune would travel half way across Dunan to the hands of Jowy, just because it is a half rune? It seems more likely that Neclord would get it. If you stick with the previous comment (about runes traveling) that would mean that Windy is alive, as the front gate rune would travel all the way to Leknaat.

They were great sorcerers, so they were able to unnaturally split it. But not without a cost; Leknaat lost her sight.

Was that the EXACT incident where Leknaat lost her sight? I thought it had to do with Hikusaak (and yes I know he attacked the village, but I mean the incident).

Post by **Vextor** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:07 am

Leknaat was injured by soldiers during the incident, resulting in the loss of her eyesight. It wasn't the splitting of runes that caused it.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:44 pm

Yea I thought so, cause Windy still had her eyesight and she went through the same process.

Ced The Lad · Post by **Ced The Lad** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:20 am

Whupps sorry about that. I got mixed up there.

Actually though, I conceeded that Neclord vs. Riou argument back last July following Stallion's post. (Page 2)

But I guess that covers everything. Good job, Black Fang.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:58 am

Right back at'cha Ced. Glad we finally got this wrapped up.

One thing that I still don't get though. If Neclord DID manage to kill Riou in Tinto........what would have happened to the Bright Shield Rune???

Post by **Vextor** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:33 am

Then the rune will go to Jowy's place, and become one as the Rune of the Beginning.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:01 am

So what you're saying is that the rune would travel (fly or teleport) all the way from the cave in Tinto to Highland and into the hand of Jowy at the moment of Rious' death?

Post by **Vextor** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:35 am

I wouldn't say "the moment of Riou's death," but if either Jowy or Riou dies when the two runes are still in conflict, the other half will join with the other to form the Rune of the Beginning. True Runes are capable of teleporting, so I assume it will.