Chaos?

Sol Knight · Post by **Sol Knight** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:39 pm

What do you think ever happened to the being "Chaos" from the story of the Beginning? Do you think that it was even a being, and if you didn't why or why not?

I'll post my opinion later, after being... uuuh... enlightened by other people's thoughts.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:20 pm

Well, the creation story is just that, a story. It's a myth or a fairy tale trying to explain an event in which no one knows exactly how, when, or why it happened. So, the "Chaos" described might be an actual entity, or it may just be a termed used to explain something. I'd think the "Chaos" is just a term trying to explain an unspecified event.

Turin Turambar · Post by **Turin Turambar** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:59 pm

I actually think that the creation story is more than just a story. Luc seems to speak like it is true when he talks to the Flame Champ at the end of Suik 3. He says something along the lines of "when Sword and Shield fought in the beginning."

Now I'm not one to take everything that Luc says as gospel. However, in this case, Luc seems to have pretty good inside information from the True Wind Rune. Luc obviously was very well in tune with his rune and was able to learn a great deal from the rune, and I think the beginning of time would be one of the things that he learned.

Back to Chaos. I don't remember there being any being named chaos. The only being there was at the very, very beginning was darkness.

Sol Knight · Post by **Sol Knight** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:35 pm

Well, just to fill a gap here, I think that Chaos was an existing entity in the form of something living because it had to have shed a tear. Now in the beginning movie of Suikoden II, it should a face with a tear on the side of it's face, which I believe was a drawing of a clan that worshipped the Rune of the Beginning. Of course I shouldn't just jump to conclusions like that, But I Did!!! Hahahaha!

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:23 pm

I actually think that the creation story is more than just a story. Luc seems to speak like it is true when he talks to the Flame Champ at the end of Suik 3. He says something along the lines of "when Sword and Shield fought in the beginning."

Luc is only referring to the myth when he makes that statement.

However, in this case, Luc seems to have pretty good inside information from the True Wind Rune. Luc obviously was very well in tune with his rune and was able to learn a great deal from the rune, and I think the beginning of time would be one of the things that he learned.

All the True Wind Rune showed Luc was a partial vision of a possible future, not the exact future. There was no mention of him learning about the beginning of time through the True Wind Rune. Besides, the True Wind Rune would have no knowledge of the beginning of time according to the myth because in essence it would have been created after the clash of the Sword and Shield. It would have no recognition of the supposed Chaos or the Darkness.

Id · Post by Id » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:40 pm

Sol Knight wrote:Well, just to fill a gap here, I think that Chaos was an existing entity in the form of something living because it had to have shed a tear

Again, the creation myth is just a metaphor. Darkness is personified, and sheds a tear. this is the people's attempt to explain how the world was formed.

Vincent of Scarlet Moon · Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:03 pm

I view the Creation Myth as the people's attempt at wraping their minds around a very real event. I'd wager the world was created in a manner somehow similar to the myth rather that it being just a silly legend with no basis in truth.

Suikoden isn't like most RPG's but it does tend to share one important rule: Most myths/legends/etc. are true for the most part.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:22 pm

Well, if you think it's possible for humans to write about something they couldn't possibly have experienced themselves, then go right ahead, but I doubt that they could possibly have any knowledge of it. It's just a myth and as I stated even the True Runes wouldn't know how 'creation' actually happened because if the so-called creation story is right then the True Runes would not even know what actually happened as they were 'born' after the event.

Aside from that, it was stated that the True Runes fell to the ground, therefore something was already there before they were even 'born', therefore the creation myth is not really factual at all if you take it literally, but that's why it's just a myth. It's an attempt to explain something in which no one has no idea of how it happened or why it happened. It's similar to the Genesis. Just a story.

JanusThePaladin · Post by **JanusThePaladin** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:55 pm

Hmm, human beings writing a book that they accept as the true creation of the world....hmm sounds really familiar...what was that thing...oh yes there it is THE BIBLE!

Anyway, I do believe Luc stated that he had knowledge from the past proprietors of the True Wind Rune through the True Wind Rune.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:10 pm

Some people don't believe in the Bible, so we can't use that as justification.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:11 pm

The Bible!? Are you serious?? LOL. Sorry, I don't mean to laugh or start a philosophical discussion, but the Bible (referring to the Old Testament) is a bunch of highly mythical stories describing an unknown series of events The Bible is possibly the most entertaining story to date as it gets more entertaining over time. Don't let me get started, but if you believe in the Genesis to be True and that man was contructed from sand then more power to you. And if you believe that there was a man that could push down pillars, until of course, he gets a haircut, then more power to you.

You could also believe that God lost his temper with man and caused a flood that wiped out the entire known civilization and that God specifically chose a specific group of people to be the 'Chosen'. That's of course up to you, as well. That's your belief, but it's clear that the story of the Garden of Eden and the story of creation and Adam and Eve is just a tale similar to the Tower of Babylon. They are just stories and even theologians in the Catholic Church take them as such.

And those humans writing those stories are even more suspect as they perceive the world in their own personal view and it could possibly become so distorted as to be laughable to actually believe. So, making the Bible an argumentive piece of 'fact' really doesn't work for me. lol.

And if you go back and play Suikoden 3 again, and if I recall directly, the True Wind Rune gives Luc a glimpse of a possible future. The key word here is a possible future. Luc never mentions about knowing about the creation of the world. He says he sees a vision given to him of the future by the True Wind Rune. No creation story information given to him and once again, it would be impossible for the True Wind Rune to tell him anything but a myth because even the True Wind Rune would not have known exactly what had happened as it was created after Night shed a Tear and after the Sword and Shield clashed.

Id · Post by Id » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:16 pm

oh boy. I bet some people here would beg to differ with you on the bible being for entertainment purposes.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:23 pm

I'm sure they would and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Like I said, I won't say what to believe or not, but the Bible is quite entertaining if you look at it in the perspective of it being solely reading material. I, for one, went to Catholic school every year of my life until I started college, so don't think I'm cutting down the Bible and the influence of it's stories, but I'm just stating that some of the stories are meant to entertain while also trying to give you a moral "lesson". But, I'm not going to change this into a discussion about the Bible which I thought was even interesting to have been brought up as I only slightly mentioned it in passing without saying it. LOL.

I'm just stating that the Bible can be seen as much as a myth as the so-called creation story of the Suikoden series. The so-called creation story has been stated to be simply a myth trying to explain an event that can't possibly be accurately explained unless the Darkness somehow decides to share it with us gamers. But, I don't think it will decide to talk. I just choose to not take the story as too much and just take it for what it is.

JanusThePaladin · Post by **JanusThePaladin** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:11 pm

And to the opposite of what you said, the Creation Myth of Suikoden can be taken just as seriously as some take the Bible.

I personally don't believe the stories of the bible, any of them. I was simply using it as an example.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:32 pm

I never said it couldn't be. But, the fact that it is said to be a myth implies for it to be taken as a tale. A myth is not intended to be taken as truth. It is a story explaining an unknown event that has not been logically explained. If you take it literally, then do so and do the same for the Bible if it pleases you or anyone to do so, of course. But, the fact is that even the characters call it a story. A myth in nature is meant to be non-fictional or false to some extent. Even myths about King Author have been drastically distorted so that it only contains only slight truth. A myth is a story attempting to explain something that is not feasible to the mortal mine and beyond mortal understanding.