Other True Runes

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
kenobi
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Post by kenobi »

the true runes are the ones that does the balancing in the suiko world right?what could possibly happen if the dragon rune is wipe out?no more dragons..that's all eh?i don't see anything chaotic if the dragons are gone..

also about the true water rune that went out of control at the sindar ruin..is it wyatt fault that is went out of control?i didn't quite understand that part..i just take it as.he wanted to regain control back of the true water powers..then luc came attack and it went out of control.

i think that not all true runes will have it's opposite..some true runes on it's own already have it's opposite..that's what i think.

5 elemental runes:water-->fire-->wind-->earth-->lightning-->water
gate rune:front<-->back
rune of beginning:black sword<-->bright shield
punishment:atonement <--> forgiveness??
blue moon <-->night rune??
circle<-->change??
demon eye
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Post by demon eye »

Well, it would be quite chaotic if the dragons disappeared for the dragon knights. Also, we don't know what effect the lost of dragons in this world would have on the Suikoden World and the World of Wings and Scales. It could very well cause an unbalance. But, we can't be too sure.

As for the True Water Rune going out of control, it was actually because Luc tampered with the seal and caused it to be prematurely opened. Wyatt did not have time to properly remove the seal and the True Water Rune went out of control because of it.

And actually all True Runes seems to have an inner opposite even the elemental True Runes. It's not hard to realize when you look at the True Elemental Runes in depth.
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Post by JanusThePaladin »

Everything in our world is balanced around everything else. If you were to take out one thing, even one miniscule thing, and utterly destroy its existence, you would disrupt the fabric of the universe. Similarly, in the Suikoden world, the same thing would happen. The True Dragon rune is required to keep dragon's in existence on that world. Although their affect maynot be all the noticeable currently, their loss would be great. If anything specifically has a rune, you can expect it to be important to the Suikoden world.

Demon eye adequetly explained the water rune.

As I posted previously, not all rune's have an opposite. My belief is that all powers must have an opposing force. In the case of, for example, the Soul Eater, it is the rune of Life and Death, and therefore contradicts itself, balance maintained. In the idea of a circle, continuing on and on, with no change, we have and opposite rune, the rune of Change.

Well, atleast thats my theory, feel free to shoot it down.
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Post by Turin Turambar »

I think you're right Janus.

Gate rune balances itself with two sides (even if it were combined into one piece).
Rune of life and Death
Punishment (atonement and forgiveness)
elementals might provide a circle of balance
Blue moon has compassion and destruction
beginning has sword and shield

Night and Dragon still do the same thing. They both allow their respective creatures to live (vampires, werewolves, dragons), but also give the rune bearer the power to destroy those creatures. Kinda like a rune of life and death for creatures of the night and a rune of life and death for dragons.

Cirlce and Change naturally oppose each other which gives good reason that there might be other true rune opposites.

Therefore, we might infer that there is an opposite to Yuber's Eightfold rune. This might either be a seven fold or a nine fold depending on whether you think the Suikoden writers are Bhuddist or Taoist.

Beast and Sovereign are the ones left that don't seem to have an opposite either in themselves or in another rune. These last three are the only ones we can really use to speculate/predict unknown true runes.
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Shirofan
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Post by Shirofan »

For several years people have been claiming that the Circle Rune and the Rune of Change must be opposites; people rarely justify that statement and those that do tend to leave large holes in their theories.

People seem to equate the Rune of Change only with chaotic forms of change such as anarchy and random flux; they fail to consider that change also includes ordered systems like cycles and iterative sequences.

The main reason for this is actually nothing to do with the Change aspect at all, but the privative of the Rune of Change: a static changelessness should encompass stagnation as part of its remit.
However it has been stated that Stagnation is related to the Circle Rune. The issue here is whather it is a power of the Circle Rune or a consequence of it.

The latter makes sense with almost all known systems, in that the more ordered they are then the more resistant to change they become. If they mean beauraucratic stagnation where change is slow because it has to be passed through so many levels and procedures then we can happily seperate the two Runes even with this overlap.
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JanusThePaladin
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Post by JanusThePaladin »

My reasoning for them being opposites is quite simple. A circle is repetitive, never changing, going around and around in an orderly fashion. Change is the opposite, it doesn't repeat, its always different, probably goes in a more random fashion. Not necessarily good vs. evil, because to much order can be evil, and change can often be good.
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Post by Landis »

Well... the Circle Rune is supposedly about Order and Stagnation... and stagnation is definately the polar opposite of Change...
Vincent of Scarlet Moon
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Post by Vincent of Scarlet Moon »

On a simpler note, many of the runes are opposites within the same rune. Such as the Rune of Life and Death, the Rune of the Beginning and the Rune of Punishment and Atonement.

So, perhaps the Circle Rune is the Rune of Order/Dharma and Change/Chaos.

A circle can also represent a cycle after all, which while changing also works itself according to a set order. So is that Change? Or Order? Or both?
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Vextor
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Post by Vextor »

The Circle Rune embodies both Order and Stagnation, which are two positive and negative aspects (duality) inherent in what the rune represents. Whether that means it embodies aggregates of Chaos is unknown, but it is possible.
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Post by Landis »

Of course it is all blind speculation... but it does make sense in a way.
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Vextor
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Post by Vextor »

I wouldn't say "blind" speculation, because these are based on some evidence plus some educated guesses. Definitaley not a wild stab in the dark.
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Post by Jowy Atreides »

Vincent of Scarlet Moon wrote:Rune of Punishment and Atonement
It's the Rune of Atonement and Forgiveness. Normally I wouldn't bother pointing this out but punishment and forgivness are two completely different things.
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
JanusThePaladin
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Post by JanusThePaladin »

I thought it was Rune of Punishment and Atonement. Seems weird that the Rune of Punishment would not be characterized by its own name...

Anyway, Stagnation can be caused by to much order. Anyone here ever read Micheal Morcock? He rights books about the endless struggle between Law and Chaos, not good and evil, law and Chaos. These 2 forces must always be kept in opposition, because if one wins out, Total Law or Chaos insues, and both Pure Law and Pure Chaos are both technically bad/evil.

The way I see it, something similar must be kept in the Suikoden world. A balance between the Runes, wether the runes actually represent Law and Chaos is anyone's guess, but that is the way i see it.
Jowy Atreides
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Post by Jowy Atreides »

Look in the game itself. When you highlight the Rune of Punishment it says: The Rune governing Atonement and Forgiveness (or something similar). Atonement and Punishment are pretty much the same, depending on how you look at it.
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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True Wind Bearer
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Post by True Wind Bearer »

Yea...what the hell people? It's Atonement and Forgiveness. Jowy, it does stare it in the game itself, you're right. Also, when I downloaded the Suikoden IV trailer, Leknaat explains it saying "Atonement and Forgiveness are within its sphere of influence..."
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