Suikoden related to the Chinese Story: Water Margin

Sergeant Keroro · Post by **Sergeant Keroro** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:41 am

I know many of us know that Suikoden is based or inspired on the legendary history behind the Chinese 108 Stars known to legend. But there isn't a clear focus on what story or part of history that is based on. Or atleast what is to my knowledge. I've just been browsing around today thinking about the subject and I did find something interesting. I'm not to sure if this topic has been brought up before...But I believe that some how the Chinese story called Water Margin somehow was the baseline or insperations for Suikoden.

Water Margin is well-known as one of the four greatest Chinese novels in history.It tells stories of a group of heroes,who stand for different classes of people daring to struggle against the evil.There are 105 men and 3 women in all,who are oppressed by the currupt and unjust official and then rise up.These stories take place at the end of the North Song period,describing various vivid pictures of farmers' uprising full of love and hate,ties of friendship, kind and enmity,etc.The heroes do lots of good deeds to help the poor by blundering the evil.But later,they surround themselves to the official,obeying to fight with other kingdoms.Finally,most of them die or hurt badly. (this is all cited from the website http://www.china-on-site.com/water.php)

Though there are a few things different about the two, they do share some of the same things.

The 108 known people who rose up to events. Sure I know it seems kind of corny to compare numbers like this. But it could be possable that the 108 known heroes to this story can might as well be the same 108 Stars of Destiny known to the Chinese story. Though there were only a few women included within the 108 heroes known to Water Margin it could be possable that it maybe linked together.

Most of the Suikoden storyline is based on uprising. Due to currupt government or the thrist for more land. Again Water Margin and Suikoden share something of the same goal. This band of 108 people which gather to uprise against the government to regain control.

And sure these two grand stories do seem linked with a few things. They are also seperated in different ways. Again this is a theory and I wasn't to sure if this subject has been brought up before. I have not truely read the full story of Water Margin. But it was just something interesting that popped up in my head.

Culqan · Post by **Culqan** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:56 am

Hmm.. Ya know that Suikoden is Water Margin on english?
If i remember right..

Sergeant Keroro · Post by **Sergeant Keroro** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:43 pm

I was browsing around the site and found that his topic has been brought up before. I mean it's kinda hard to bring up a new topic. With so many people there are a lot of things being covered. But besides the theory that these stories are related to each other. Has anyone ever read any of them?

Clive_ · Post by **Clive_** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:11 pm

In the Water MArgin i believe there are only 18 heroes, or in the books case bandits. rather than the 108 star of destiny.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:54 pm

There are 108 Stars of Destiny in "The Water Margin."

Chas · Post by **Chas** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:55 pm

Now...Suikoden and the 108 stars are set in China right....and not Japan?

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:25 pm

Right, the story is set in China.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:41 pm

"See how Fate conspires to bring the nine dozen heroes to the water margines of Lo Shang Hi"

[VERY misquoted, but I just couldn't remember it!]

Hehe, the 70's TV series rocked. I can see so much of Suikoden in it that it makes my head tingly to watch it. The DVD boxset is (oddly) available very cheaply now too.

et3rnal · Post by **et3rnal** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:58 am

Faust wrote:"See how Fate conspires to bring the nine dozen heroes to the water margines of Lo Shang Hi"

[VERY misquoted, but I just couldn't remember it!]

Hehe, the 70's TV series rocked. I can see so much of Suikoden in it that it makes my head tingly to watch it. The DVD boxset is (oddly) available very cheaply now too.

70's tv series what is it called? Also ive looked all over the place and can't find "the water margin" can it be brought off the internet easily?

Lemmy Claypool · Post by **Lemmy Claypool** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:06 am

Yep. They have it on Amazon.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:42 pm

Searching Outlaws of the Marsh instead of The Water Margin will yield more results.

Kasumi · Post by **Kasumi** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:16 pm

It's funny you talk about that because I am reading Water Margins right now ! In french it is called "Au bord de l'eau". It has been compared to the 3 musketeers and a Chinese friend of mine told me it was very funny.

I am only at the beginning but she's right, it's funny and full of adventures ! I'll tell you more after further reading.

Weilong Jin · Post by **Weilong Jin** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:50 am

I've finished the book a couple of times and it is nothing like the games. The characters in the books were full blown criminals. Not all of them but many. Children are murdered by the SoD's and people's lives crushed. The characters are very different, i couldn't in fact find any that I would compare to each other. The government is corrupt but so is everyone, of course thats how china tends to be.

Moonbay · Post by **Moonbay** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:54 pm

If you can read Chinese--go to suikoden.com

I can't read Chinese or Japanese--but I can guess what "ryozanpaku 108" means.

Eikei · Post by **Eikei** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:43 pm

Weilong Jin wrote:The characters in the books were full blown criminals...The characters are very different...i couldn't in fact find any that I would compare to each other...

You're reading too much into relating storylines. The basic premisis of The Water Margin is where Suikoden comes from. There are no direct correlations between any of the characters, but the premise is what is the important part.

Look at the episode lineup from the 70's TV series and tell me that you don't have some memorable moments that come to mind from your Suikoden experiences:

Episode guide

Nine dozen heroes and one wicked man
None will ever escape alive
Both at last will reach the sea
Bandits who steal are executed
How easy to die, how hard to live
A man's only happiness
A dutiful son and the love of a brother
Escape is not freedom
The girl who loved the Flower Priest
A death for love, more deaths from greed
The bravest tiger is first killed
A foolish sage who got involved
Mourn the slaughter of so many
A war to end all wars
Death of a great man
Liang Shan Po (antagonist) and the millionaire
Knight of the long sword
The dynasty of Kao

Also, the entire premises of these stories can be summed up with the following:

The ancient sages said "do not despise the snake for having no horns, for who is to say it will not become a dragon?"
So may one just man become an army.
Nearly a thousand years ago in ancient China, at the time of the Sung dynasty, there was a cruel and corrupt government.
These men riding are outlaws -- heroes -- who have been driven to live in the Water Margins of Liang Shan Po, far to the south of the capital city. Each fights tyranny with a price on his head, in a world very different from our own.
The story starts in legend even then, for our heroes, it was said, were perhaps the souls reborn of other, earlier knights.

Obviously this was the original inspiration for the game. And the fact that it was also an inspiration for a 1970's Sci-fi television show is just a tool to be used to direct the relativity. The story is ancient history for the Chinese. It's been around forever, and therefore it's carried through a number of different mediums. Suikoden being one of the many.