"Theme" of the True Runes

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
Post Reply
Arcana
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:31 am

"Theme" of the True Runes

Post by Arcana »

Okay, so here's another True Rune question. It wasn't really addressed in the "True Runes" thread in this forum and is a bit more directed than the questions posted in that thread.

What I'm wondering is if there is a trend or commonality among the 27 True Runes list. In other words, is there a trend visible among the existing runes we know of such that we can give a rough guess as to what the other remaining runes are? Is there actually a list of runes from legend or myth that Konami might be taking these runes from?

For example, the Rune List as exists, according to this site, is:

Rune of Life and Death (Souleater)
Rune of Beginning (Sword/Shield)
Gate Rune (Back/Front)
Fire
Water
Earth
Lightning
Wind
Beast
Dragon
Blue Moon
Circle
Change
Eightfold (which I envision as "Infinity")
Night
Sovreign

So that's 16 runes right there, meaning that there's still 11 that have not been mentioned. Based on these 16, is there a way to predict, plausibly, what the other runes could possibly be?

One theme, of course, of the runes is that they tend to have opposites, of sorts. We see the "Maintain Balance" theme in Suikoden that is common in most fantasy-themed books, novels, and games. We also see the Elements, which are also common. There is a hint of races here (with the Dragon and Beast runes) but that isn't enough to suggest any real themes. We also have some reports of false astronomy, and natural phenomenon.

All of these runes are also of objects - not qualities (with the exception of the Eightfold Rune, the Change Rune, and the Circle Rune if you view circle as equating with Unity). There are no runes that correspond with character traits or personalities, for example.

Therefore, would it be reasonable to speculate:

- There is a "Day" rune or a "Shining" rune, to balance the Night Rune?

- We may have a "Human/Mankind" rune or a "Demon" rune to round out the races.

- We may have "Wood" and "Metal" as materials (they are also elements in Feng Shui)

- We could have the "Square" rune to counteract the "Circle" rune.

Okay, I'm kidding about the last one.

I'm wondering how plausible it is to speculate on the remaining runes. This is an unfounded theory, but it's interesting to see the trends of the existing runes and to see how they might relate to any new ones we may see.

Thanks for your time.
-- Arcana

http://suikoden.mine.nu
Suikoden: Pro Patria Mori
- Suikoden Fiction Writing Game.
A land in turmoil... a Rune rediscovered.
Who will be the next Tenkai Star... could it be you?
User avatar
Red Killey
Elite Member
Posts: 1181
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:11 am

Post by Red Killey »

We also have Rune of Punishment that features in Suikoden 4. So we know 17 out of 27 True Runes.

For the "opposite True Rune" theory, I personally don't think it'll happen like that. A few reasons as to why I think that way:
1. 27 is an odd number, you cannot really divide it into two to have opposites.
2. If you take out the 5 elemental True Runes, you got 22, which is an even number. But even so, we already know 12 out of the 22. So we already know more than half of the rest, and practically there isn't a single opposite pairing between 2 of those 12.
3. I don't believe that opposites are applicable to True Runes. For example, the Night Rune allowed undead creatures to exist. So what would a Day rune be for? To allow living creatures to exist? I doubt so.
4. There are True Runes that we just cannot have opposites. For example, what would be the opposite of Dragon Rune? Nothing, or everything else that is not dragon?

Having said that, I think there is still a possibility of an "opposite" True Rune to exist, but I personally think that it might only be 1 or 2, and not simply opposites to all.

And Suikoden only have 5 elements in it (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, and Lightning). So Metal or Wood elements are definitely out of the picture.
The new chief of moderating team. If you notice any problems within the discussion forum, do inform me. Thank you.
User avatar
patapi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2520
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:55 pm

Post by patapi »

About the trend/commonality, there used to be a very popular hypothesis that the non-elemental true runes {27 - 5 = 22} are derived from the 22 Tarot cards of Major Arcana. I'm not very aware of the details, but somehow they managed to map all the known runes against their most probable card representation.

Bear in mind that at best it was nothing more than a speculation though.
LGM
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:12 pm
Location: London, England

Post by LGM »

Personally I think the way konami comes up with runes is down to plot device. I can't see how a rune that a rune of punishment is that different from a soul eater, but they do both sound really cool. So does the beast rune. Chances are a day rune would be far to boring to write a story around, plus attacking a bad guy with a rainbow or something isn't really tough, is it?

I really do doubt also that runes are reflective of the universe in its entirety. They seem as more as an asset to war and killing.

Maybe a creation, reincarnation, or a life rune would be a fresh change? Plus all those people desperate to bring Odessa, Ted, Luc, etc... would have hope!
Doo-Doo-D-Doo, Doody-Doody-Doody-D-Do....
Arcana
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:31 am

Post by Arcana »

LGM wrote:I really do doubt also that runes are reflective of the universe in its entirety. They seem as more as an asset to war and killing.
Now that's a pretty bleak statement of the world. :)

I brought up the "opposites theme" because in this thread, SARSadmin strongly defended the position that the True Runes are meant to ensure that there is balance in the world.

That's why I was thinking about it. If the night rune allows undead creatures to exist, then it may as well be categorized in the same vein as the Beast rune and the Dragon rune, rather than in a theme of balance. That's why I was just brainstorming.

But if it seems that Konami just arbitarily pulls True Runes out of their butts when a new game comes out, that's also a perfectly valid theory as well. It would confirm my speculation that the True Runes in fact aren't a list coming from any specific source.
-- Arcana

http://suikoden.mine.nu
Suikoden: Pro Patria Mori
- Suikoden Fiction Writing Game.
A land in turmoil... a Rune rediscovered.
Who will be the next Tenkai Star... could it be you?
Turin Turambar
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:43 am

Post by Turin Turambar »

I actually think that you have something with the opposites but are not quite wording it right. When you talk about balance, you're closer to the truth. With the elementals, there is obviously not opposites among them, but there is balance with all five of them in play. It makes a sort of regular(equal sides and angles) pentagon with force in all opposite directions equaling zero (I hope that makes sense).

The same thing exists with all the others that we know so far. This is either between multiple runes or within each one itself. Circle and Change balance each other. Others such as Gate, Beginning, Life and Death, Punishment, Blue Moon, Dragon, and Night balance themselves.

------
Beginning offers the sword and the shield of the creation story. One attacks and the other defends, thus balancing itself.

Gate - one side summons monsters into this world, the other sends them out.

Life and death - obvious balancing pieces

Punishment governs atonement and forgiveness, two elements that balance each other. I would say that this makes the rune different from the Soul Eater (which is a poor name when you're talking about its nature and purpose).

Blue Moon - Compassion and Destruction: balancing themes

Dragon and Night both balance themselves by giving life to their respective creatures, but by also giving them the power to destroy those same creatures.
------

The beast rune is harder to explain. Animalistic rage and passion can possibly mean two different and balancing elements (if you call passion a good thing, perhaps more constructive than rage), but I personally doubt that.

Sovereign is also hard to explain because its "powers are still a mystery" according to suikosource. We don't know what exactly it governs.

Finally, the Eightfold rune is also hard to explain as we don't know what's its powers or purpose are. Some have suggested that it gets its name from the Buddhist philosophy of the eightfold path that leads to ultimate and peaceful order, or Nirvana. The Eightfold rune then might represent Order. If this is true, there is also a sevenfold path (I'm sorry that I don't know what it leads to) that may be inspiration to a possible Sevenfold rune to be worn by Pesmerga that might represent Chaos.

I really do doubt also that runes are reflective of the universe in its entirety. They seem as more as an asset to war and killing.
I also think that that's a little bleak. I think that that's all that we see because several of the selling points of this series of games are major battles, one-on-one duels, and the overall struggle of individuals and nations. In other words, war makes the game more interesting to the public.

Also, it doesn't always take a war for a rune to find its balance. Dragon, Night, Gate, and Blue Moon have all found balance without a 108 star ordeal.

So based on the only known runes, we might be able to predict another true rune. Since Sovereign, Beast, and Eightfold don't have a balance partner that we know about, we can guess for them. I have no idea what would balance Sovereign except something that might have to do with humility, but that's random thinking. Something that might balance the Beast might be wisdom or rationalism. We've already seen suggestions for Eightfold, most notably Sevenfold.

All in all, there must obviously be other themes that will decide the other runes. So, it doesn't have to be balance; it could be something else random. But I think that it is a good starting place for speculation.
Give me a story with cursed and tragic heroes, and I'll follow to my death.
User avatar
Gorudo
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:18 pm

Post by Gorudo »

Turin Turambar wrote:Finally, the Eightfold rune is also hard to explain as we don't know what's its powers or purpose are. Some have suggested that it gets its name from the Buddhist philosophy of the eightfold path that leads to ultimate and peaceful order, or Nirvana. The Eightfold rune then might represent Order. If this is true, there is also a sevenfold path (I'm sorry that I don't know what it leads to) that may be inspiration to a possible Sevenfold rune to be worn by Pesmerga that might represent Chaos.
It's more widely accepted that the Eightfold Rune is based off of the Taoist number 8 which represents Chaos. And 9 in Taoism represents Order, so it's assumed that Pesmerga has a Ninefold Rune.
Windspun_Monkey
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:02 am

Post by Windspun_Monkey »

Where do the ressurection runes come from? Has this been stated or do you think there might be some kind of true resurection rune? I'm not sure if anythings been stated on this or not. There is also a possiblity that there are true runes that aren't magical. I think it would be sweet if they made a true beat rune, which rather than a double-beat rune would be a quadruple beat rune.
demon eye
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:22 am

Post by demon eye »

It's been theorized that the resurrection runes come from the Rune of Life and Death a.k.a Rune of Judgement a.k.a Soul Eater. All True Runes are "magical", they are in essences the beings that allow the Suikoden World to exist.
Windspun_Monkey
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:02 am

Post by Windspun_Monkey »

just because all runes are magical doesn't mean they have to cast magical spells. It's just speculation. I think that there is a chance that we will see a true run that doesn't have any magical spells. It also seems that true runes have spells or do things that such as summon montsters. Like Luc summoned the Golem in S1. Maybe the sovereign rune doesn't have any spells. It nullifies magic which would seem to imply that it doesn't have any spells the user can cast. I know Barbosa summoned the dragon thingy but like I stated before Luc did the same thing and we know there isn't a summon golem spell with the rune. So maybe some of the non-magical runes come from the sovereign true rune. This could very well support the fact that there are true unes that don't have castable spells (ie, the 4 levels of spells) but in fact have other powers like nullifying magic.
demon eye
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:22 am

Post by demon eye »

Actually, the Sovereign Rune transformed Barbarossa into the Golden Hydra. He didn't summon it. The Dragon Rune has no magical spells. It just allows its bearer the power to control dragons and allows for dragons to exist in the world outside of their homeworld. So, there's an example of a True Rune without "casting" ability. I'm just stating that we will probably not see the Hero being able to use a True Rune with no offensive capabilities and spell casting abilities.
Windspun_Monkey
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:02 am

Post by Windspun_Monkey »

you're probably right. I guess fans might not respond to a hero who has a rune without magical capabilities. I think it would be cool if they introduced another charactor with such a rune though. I also think it would be cool to learn the truth about Viki too.
DarkWizard
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:32 pm

Post by DarkWizard »

I find it strange that the Dragon Rune sounds like if it was made just for the physical world so that dragons could exist in the mortal world. After all, most of the other true runes are representation of a large force or concept of nature that seems to imply to the entire Universe. To me, I think the Dragon Rune is poor choice of a True Rune unless Konami decides to expand on its purpose and representation of the Suikoden World.

If the all of the non-elemental true runes were based on opposites, perhaps the opposite of the Beast Rune would be something that represents civilization or sophistication of mortals for a lack of better words. From the description of the Beast Rune, I see the rune as a representation of primal side of everything. If the animalistic rage and passion representation can be seen as the untame and uneducated nature of humans, then the opposite could a rune to represent the wisdom and knowledge of the world.

Do you guys think that the Gate Rune could be the representation of the concept of Space? If so, then its possible that the Blinking Rune could be derived from the Gate Rune. And if the Gate Rune does represent the concept of Space, then shouldn't there be a Rune to represent Time, or would time be represented as the Rune of Change?

If the Circle Rune represents order and stagnation, and the Rune of Change represents change or disorder (to keep with the opposite of the Circle Rune), then wouldn't the concept of the Eightfold Rune and speculated Ninefold rune being representations of Chaos and Order respectively be redundant (seeing that chaos can be seen at as change)?

Then going along with the idea that the True Runes is the essence of the Suikoden world, then there should be a rune(s) to represent the Love/Hate nature of humans, or to cover a larger number of human emotions, perhaps Negative/Positive emotions.
The_Face_of_Death
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:28 am
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Post by The_Face_of_Death »

It's been stated that one of the upcoming Suikoden 5 runes is called the Sun Rune, divided between Rune of Dusk & Rune of Dawn, or something like that.
MY SWORD STILL THIRSTS FOR BLOOD!!!!!!!!
Wraith
Posts: 1434
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:21 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Wraith »

The_Face_of_Death wrote:It's been stated that one of the upcoming Suikoden 5 runes is called the Sun Rune, divided between Rune of Dusk & Rune of Dawn, or something like that.
We don't know wehter the Rune of Dawn and the Rune of Dusk are components of the Sun Rune. They might as wel be seperate True Runes or 'Normal'(in the sense that they arnt really True Runes but have about the same power as one, such as the BSR) runes that support the Sun Rune.

I think most people think that the Dusk and Dawn Rune are seperate runes.
Post Reply