Hikusaak's clones

[Jowy Atreides]

It's known that they want True Runes for whatever reason and nothing more. Saying they want them to remain there is "pushing it just alittle".

The First Fire Bringer War was started because Harmonia invaded Grassland before the True Fire Rune was ever even stolen. The First Fire Bringer War happened so Harmonia could try and gain back its lost land, which it never did.

Geddoe's homeland held a rune they've never had before. That doesn't really support or disagree with how long they want to keep their True Runes, just says that they want 'em, which is pretty obvious in and of itself.

The True Water Rune was also never in the possession of Wyatt so the HVG chasing him is also irrelevant.

Luc and Sarasai's cases don't support or disagree with this either. When they lost Luc, and then eventually got him back it didn't seem to bother them that Luc ran off again in S3. Sasarai's never been stolen or anything so we don't know too much about that.

They're still after Windy and Leknaat? After the Gate Rune Clan was destroyed Windy and Leknaat were never bothered again by Harmonia.

Hikusaak's never visited L'renouille (that we know of) or shown any particular hatred towards them so it doesn't seem like too big of a deal to him to lose it. The rune is under Highland which in turn is under Harmonia but the rune is still Highland's. Harmonia's never tried to take it back either.

I agree that Harmonia wants True Runes but keeping them is a whole 'nother issue.

[demon eye]

What would the point be of gaining the True Runes through so much trouble and hardwork if you just want them for a little while to study?? Of course, this could be possible, but there's no need to destroy each land that they came across in order to just "study" the True Rune that exist in that land. So I wouldn't say that the fact that they want to keep the True Runes is pushing it at all. You gain strength in order to use it, not to study it. I'm pretty sure Harmonia knows the magnitude of powers each True Rune must possess, they might not know what each can do, but they know they are pwoerful nonetheless. Power is to be used and if anything we know about Harmonia, we know that they love to exert their power.

As for the First Fire Bringer War, I believe that the Fire Bringer War started after the Flame Champion stole the True Fire Rune from Harmonia and not before. The Fire Bringers were the army established by the Flame Champion after he snuck into Harmonia and stole the True Fire Rune, hence the name Fire Bringers which refers to the followers of the True Fire Rune bearer. That's if my memory serves me. So, Harmonia did invade the Grasslands after he stole the True Fire Rune.

As for the information about Geddoe, it had no bearing on the length of how long Harmonia wants to keep the True Runes, it was in referrence to the statement of whether or not Harmonia wanted to keep the True Runes in their entirety. The fact that Harmonia is going through all the trouble of getting these True Runes just shows that they just don't want them to play around with for a little while. No one in their right minds would waste years..many many years..to get something in order to play around with it and then toss them away. The referrence to the True Water Rune was also in referrence to the statement about whether Harmonia wants to keep the True Runes in their entirety.

About Luc, they knew he was a defect and they could get to him whenever they wanted. The True Wind Rune was placed on Hikusaak's clone which they could always find without any problem, besides Luc came back to them and was mysteriously named Bishop..hmm, not by coincindence I don't think. So, Luc was not a threat to them retaining the True Wind Rune at all. Luc is and was always intertwined with Harmonia as long as he was Hikusaak's clone and the same goes for Sasarai.

And you're wrong about Windy and Leknaat not still being chased. Windy took on the cover of Barbarossa's wife to get involved with Emperor Barbarossa who just happens to have significant influence as the Emperor of the Scarlet Moon Empire. Of course, we can claim that this was just to get close to the Soul Eater, but it serves as a significant cover for Windy.

Also, Leknaat put up a magic barrier on her tower where she hid herself away from civilization as a whole. Yes, she feared Windy, but she fears being chased by those who would claim her half of the Gate Rune. Again, Harmonia would not chase down a lead on a True Rune for so many years and then just forget about it. It would be pointless to search for the True Runes in the first place.

And about the Beast Rune in Highland, you stated exactly my point as long as the True Rune is in Highland it is still under Harmonia's control. Harmonia can use Highland as they see fit and Highland controls the Beast Rune. So, therefore, Harmonia has no reason to bear hatred against Highland at all since they are their willing vessel to control the Beast Rune.

Once again, Harmonia would not go through all the trouble of hunting down all of the True Runes for so many years for the sole purpose of just finding them, toying around with them for awhile, and then just giving them up without a care in the world. It would be fruitless and pointless to begin the search in the first place. They want the power to use and exert their will all over the Suikoden World. Think about it, it would be absolutely pointless to go through such efforts for something you didn't want to keep in the first place.

[Jowy Atreides]

Harmonia's motives behind gaining the True Runes is totally unknown, so let's just leave it at that and not assume anything.

And it's kinda weird how they had the True Fire and yet never used its vast powers. And how it was stolen by one man is also very odd too.

First Fire Bringer War
Duration: 407-425 (18 years)
Participating Nations: Harmonia, Zexen, Grassland Clans


Half of the Grasslands have been under Harmonian rule for a very long time, and the Flame Champion started an uprising. Initially, the uprising was nothing more than a small band attacking Harmonian convoys. Over the years, the movement grew to encompass all of the Grassland Clans. Despite facing a vastly superior force, the clans fought tenaciously. Eventually, the Flame Champion's forces became known as the Fire Bringer. The war had its ups and downs--for example, many Fire Bringer members were captured by Harmonia during their struggle, and the Flame Champion gave himself in as an exchange for all 5000 of the prisoners. The Fire Bringers kept fighting for years with the absence of the Flame Champion, and they managed to help him outfrom Harmonia in a spectacular escape. The war ended in 425 after a huge explosion caused by the True Fire Rune, which destroyed the Harmonian Regional Army along with many Grasslanders. A truce was agreed for 50 years as a result of the war.

Credit for this quote goes to Suikox/SARSadmin.

So the war was started to get Harmonia out of Grassland, not because Harmonia wanted the True Fire Rune back in its possession.

Geddoe's homeland has no bearing on how long they want True Runes, exactly. This arguement isn't about whether they want True Runes or not, but how long they want them.

And your stuff about Windy and Leknaat is just speculation on your part. I'm still pretty unclear on how Barbarossa found Windy so maybe you're right. But you could be wrong too. It's known that Leknaat kept the magical wards on her island to avoid being found by Windy. Whether or not she was hiding from Harmonia is completely unknown. Chasing down a lead for the Gate Rune? They just destroyed the village and didn't do much more than that. I'd hardly call that 'chasing down a lead for so many years'.

Highland, I'll give you that one.

"Once again, Harmonia would not go through all the trouble of hunting down all of the True Runes for so many years for the sole purpose of just finding them, toying around with them for awhile, and then just giving them up without a care in the world. It would be fruitless and pointless to begin the search in the first place. They want the power to use and exert their will all over the Suikoden World. Think about it, it would be absolutely pointless to go through such efforts for something you didn't want to keep in the first place."

It's the same as saying it's pointless for a people to go out and find fossils just to learn more about them. Some people just have a fascination with certain things. Sometimes people just want to discover things, they don't necessarily have to use the True Runes' power. Harmonia and its leader Hikusaak are enigmas for the most part so we can't really assume anything about either one of them.

[demon eye]

And your stuff about Windy and Leknaat is just speculation on your part. I'm still pretty unclear on how Barbarossa found Windy so maybe you're right. But you could be wrong too. It's known that Leknaat kept the magical wards on her island to avoid being found by Windy. Whether or not she was hiding from Harmonia is completely unknown. Chasing down a lead for the Gate Rune? They just destroyed the village and didn't do much more than that. I'd hardly call that 'chasing down a lead for so many years'.

What you say about Windy and Barbarossa can of course be true and what I state can be true, as well. And of course it's speculation, but highly logical speculation. If Windy just wanted the Soul Eater she wouldn't have needed to go through all of the trouble of getting in the Emperor's graces. She would have just rummaged through Toran, found Ted with Neclord and Yuber's help, and then taken it like she had tried to do so many years before.

As for Leknaat, yes it is known that she kept the barrier up for Windy, but why does she keep it up after Windy goes MIA? Seems like Windy isn't her only threat.

And they specifically searched down the Gate Clan village through great efforts, amassed an army to invade the village where the clan was at, and methodically destroyed the entire clan in search of the Gate Rune. That doesn't sound like a simple find the village and destroy it thing. They searched the village out over and specifically chased down the members in search of that Gate Rune. So yes, they chased down the Gate Rune after leads for years. It was a time consuming effort.

It's the same as saying it's pointless for a people to go out and find fossils just to learn more about them. Some people just have a fascination with certain things. Sometimes people just want to discover things, they don't necessarily have to use the True Runes' power. Harmonia and its leader Hikusaak are enigmas for the most part so we can't really assume anything about either one of them.

Your analogy does not suit. Fossils are of dead organisms which cannot be brought back for any specific purpose. Only knowledge can be gained by unearthing fossils. The True Runes are powerful entities which can be used for good or for evil. Yes, Harmonia would wish to understand them, but to say that it is limited to that would clearly be foolish.

I have never heard of anyone destroying entire villages or civilizations in search for fossils. We clearly see that Harmonia is obsessed with gaining them and knowledge is not what they are after. We clearly see that these True Runes are used for power and that is what Harmonia is after and maybe understanding them comes after. They will use the True Runes to maintain their hold on the other countries. It's quite obvious if we just take the facts into account. Harmonia is not an enigma, but I agree that Hikusaak is. We clearly understand Harmonia's motives as a country.

So the war was started to get Harmonia out of Grassland, not because Harmonia wanted the True Fire Rune back in its possession.

How did you come to that conclusion after the summary of the first Fire Bringer War? From the summary we are clearly told that the Grasslands were already half controlled by Harmonia at the time. Yes, the Flame Champion began his fight to free the Grasslands from Harmonia, but if I recall correctly, the Fire Bringers were just a minor annoyance to Harmonia. The real war did not break out until the Flame Champion snuck into Harmonia and stole the True Fire Rune.

His act of invading Harmonia territory was seen as a direct act of aggression against the Holy Kingdom and they then took immediate action. Notice how the war ended when Harmonia could not retrieve the True Fire Rune. The Flame Champion sealed his True Fire Rune and went into hiding after his True Fire Rune went out of control. This was because he decided not to use it anymore and also wanted it to remain undetected by Harmonia. After those events were when the truce was drawn up. Harmonia realized they could not retrieve the True Fire Rune and just cut their loses.

Also, the Second Fire Bringer war was also fueled with hopes of Harmonia attaining the True Fire Rune. Yes, Luc was essentially behind the efforts in order to destroy his True Wind Rune, but recall that there were orders from Hikusaak himself allowing him to become Bishop and command the Harmonian Royal Forces in order to further his efforts. So, Harmonia did not give up on the True Fire Rune, True Water Rune or True Lightning Rune at all.

They supplied Luc with forces to help him carry out his tasks. They wanted the True Runes back and that is clear. The submission of the Grasslands was a clever cover for that effort. So, I'm not disagreeing with you, removing Harmonia from the Grasslands is probably why the war began but attaining the True Fire Rune in the first Fire Bringer War was essentially why the war continued and essentially why the Second Fire Bringer War began.

Each war that we have been introduced to in the series has involved Harmonia's quest for the True Runes in some form or another. It would not be wise to say that they are going through all this effort just for studying them as it seems that Harmonia already has extensive knowledge on their locations and their uses.

Go back and evaluate the games..you'll see that there is not much that Harmonia does not know about the True Runes which they seek. So, I'd think it's wise to say that studying them is not their sole purpose for retrieving the True Runes. They want them to use them and the ones they can't retain they exert their power over the country in control of them in order to retain control over the True Runes that way.

Harmonia's motives behind gaining the True Runes is totally unknown, so let's just leave it at that and not assume anything.

And it's kinda weird how they had the True Fire and yet never used its vast powers. And how it was stolen by one man is also very odd too.

Yes, the motives are unknown so I agree with you there, but to say that they just want them to study is not really realistic.

And it's not weird at all that they had the True Fire Rune and never decided to use it. They hadn't found anyone who could rightfully bear it yet. Each True Rune chooses its bearer, without a bearer the power is useless.

So, Harmonia was holding the True Fire Rune until they found a bearer who would use it for them. It's just like how they created Luc and Sasarai to bear the True Wind and Earth Runes. All they need is the proper bearers who will conform to the will of the Holy Kingdom. Power is nothing without the right person using it. So, the fact that they didn't use it is not odd at all.

Also, we have seen how Harmonia cleverly gets other countries to wield the True Runes' powers for them. We have yet to see them fully utilize any True Runes themselves, but we know them to hold power over much of the Suikoden World. Why use such an enormous power which may be potentially destructive to themselves if it is not necessary? Just because we haven't seen Harmonia use any True Runes' powers in any of the games does not imply that they never had used the True Runes at all.

Mostly I agree with all your points, but you're trying to argue the length that Harmonia wants to keep the True Runes based on the True Runes that were lost, never reclaimed or stolen from Harmonia. That is an argument without foundation to begin with. It is obvious that Harmonia goes through great efforts to find the True Runes and we don't know how many they already have in their possession.

I'm arguing common sense. Harmonia has been trying to reclaim all True Runes since Holy Kingdom was created under the guidance of Hikusaak. You don't search for something for over 800 years to just study them and then forget about them. They have destroyed villages and annihilated civilizations to reclaim these True Runes which you claim they just want to study. It just doesn't seem plausible to go through so much effort in order to just study them. If that was the case, they could just send ambassadors to those coutries, find the True Runes, and then study them. Of course this is speculation, but you're stating is speculation, as well.

[BeastRune]

All these theories, although good for different reasons, overlook the Circle Rune held by Hikusaak. We know this rune has something to do with order and is the driving power of the Harmonian Empire. It would be logical to assume that to maintain order in the Suikoden world, Hikusaak would need to bring all True Runes under his control. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a Circle Rune roundtable of sorts in a later game with a whole bunch of seats for clones bearing True Runes. Remember, just because Harmonia appears to be lax (as with the Beast Rune's location in Highland) doesn't mean they aren't interested in acquiring the runes. Immortality gives you a loooong time to wait for what you want.

[Jowy Atreides]

The Flame Champion made a 50-year truce with Harmonia, that's why they left Grassland alone.

When Windy went MIA Hellion took over Leknaat's position as seer. Leknaat wasn't at the Magician's Tower in S2 from what I gather. So no magical wards after Windy goes MIA.

I'm interested in what these great efforts were. They found the village and conquered it. After that Windy and Leknaat were never bothered again. Even if they do hide themselves they still weren't bothered no matter how you slice it.

Crappy analogy, I know. But sending ambassadors to borrow True Runes probably wouldn't work. Nations would fear losing their True Runes. If I had one of the 27 building blocks of the entire universe I don't think I'd give it up so easily.

Again, The 50-year truce was up and Harmonia wanted Grassland back. Hikusaak/Sasarai never mentioned wanting True Runes, only Luc did. And he was totally independent of Harmonia.

If they can make Luc and Sasarai to house True Runes why couldn't they do the same for the True Fire Rune?

But, who cares. I was actually incredibly bored of doing Keyboarding earlier today so I decided to come on here and post. We're both just arguing something that can't be proven either way so what's the point.

[demon eye]

The Flame Champion made a 50-year truce with Harmonia, that's why they left Grassland alone.

This statement is only pseudo-right. The fact is that Harmonia never left the Grasslands alone. Harmonia always had a presence there. Remember the mantor village (Lu Buik..spelling?) and the village the Flame Champion came from? Harmonia still held those Grassland Villages in their grasp. So, to say that they just left Grassland alone after the 50 year truce is not accurate. Harmonia never left the Grasslands and as long as they still held half of the Grasslands under their control, they still had influence over it. It's just as simple as that.

When Windy went MIA Hellion took over Leknaat's position as seer. Leknaat wasn't at the Magician's Tower in S2 from what I gather. So no magical wards after Windy goes MIA.

Just because she possibly wasn't at her old Magician's Tower doesn't mean she did not go to a new one and build agical barriers around it. But, I won't use that possibility because there's no way I can support it. So, I will use the fact that she fled from Magician's Tower in the first place. Why would she do that if she wasn't afraid of her detection?

She claimed to be weak after using her powers combined with Joshua's to fight back Windy's magic. It's quite a coincidence that she decided to give up her position after the war where she is weakened and vulnerable if she wasn't afraid of being discovered.

The fact is that Leknaat knew Windy was at Gregminster. It would be impossible for her not to know as she was hired as the lead astrologist by the Emperor himself. So, Windy would know exactly where to find her. So, after Windy is MIA along with the Emperor, why would she flee if her only enemy is gone? It just doesn't seem like Windy was the only person Leknaat was worried about.

I just can't find a good reason as to why she would flee from her solitary confines if she did not fear that she was vulnerable to being discovered by some harmful force at that time. If you could come up with another reason then I will put that issue to rest. Clearly Windy isn't the only individual Leknaat feared.

I'm interested in what these great efforts were. They found the village and conquered it. After that Windy and Leknaat were never bothered again. Even if they do hide themselves they still weren't bothered no matter how you slice it.

So, you think that Harmonia just knew the Gate Rune existed there and had to go through no effort at all to find it? If I recall, Harmonia didn't move on the Gate Rune Clan until maybe 200 years after it's birth. I'd say that they went through a great deal of effort to find that Village.

And do you think it takes little effort to amass an army and mobilize it? It takes great time and effort. It takes preparation and time. The Gate Rune Clan was not composed of just normal civillians. It was made up of trained sorceress that Harmonia found to be a threat. They had to have researched the Village to determine there was a True Rune there. We have never heard of Harmonia just thrashing Villages on a whim. So, yes, there was great effort put into finding and destroying that village. How could there not be?

And once again, Windy and Leknaat have always been looking over their shoulders. Windy is searching for power to exact her revenge on who..Harmonia. Once again, she would not have gone through the trouble of surrounding herself with strong individuals such as Yuber and Neclord if she just was in search of the Soul Eater. Yes, hiring monstrocities like them do make it quite a bit easier, but we are given plenty of proof that Windy is quite capable of finding the Soul Eater and taking it all by herself.

Windy has always surrounded herself with power individuals in order to provide her with protection. If she wasn't afraid of something then she would not need protection. So obviously she is still being chased by something. After centuries with a True Rune and the fact that she is a powerful sorceress, I'm pretty sure it is even hard for Harmonia to hunt her down, but notice every where she went Harmonian influence was seen right there with her.

I don't think I need to provide anymore proof that Leknaat is paranoid and afraid of being caught. She confined herself to an island where no one lived for centuries before she brought Luc and Sera there. Fortified herself with a powerful magic barrier so no one can enter against her will. Yes, she hired out her services to Toran. Why? She had to have known Windy had taken up in the Royal Palace.

Leknaat even mentions it! So, we all know that Leknaat fears Windy, why give her hints as to where she is located? Leknaat had the perfect defense, but still got involved with war against Windy and the Scarlet Moon Empire. So, obviously she wasn't that afraid of her. Well, we can argue that duty came before fear, but then we are posed with another question...why flee the island after Windy disappears? Anyone with a True Rune is in danger as long as Harmonia exist.

But sending ambassadors to borrow True Runes probably wouldn't work. Nations would fear losing their True Runes. If I had one of the 27 building blocks of the entire universe I don't think I'd give it up so easily.

My point exactly! And recall that most nations have never heard of a True Rune or could even fathom their powers. Harmonia is going through great pains in discovering the True Runes. They have influence on other nations. We have seen other nations willing to trade a True Rune to Harmonia for protection. Harmonia is desperate to obtain all of the True Runes and if it was just for studying them then there would be no need to rush. They want the True Runes for power.

As I have stated before, Harmonia knows what the True Runes are capable of, moreso than any other nation. They need not study them to know that they have destructive power. They don't want them for studying them and they don't plan to just find them and give them up either. The True Runes that they had and lost either chose to leave or was stolen. It was not Harmonia's decision to give them up.

Again, The 50-year truce was up and Harmonia wanted Grassland back. Hikusaak/Sasarai never mentioned wanting True Runes, only Luc did. And he was totally independent of Harmonia.

As stated before, Harmonia already held influence on the Grasslands. There was no need for wanting back what they already pretty much had. Harmonia drew up the 50 year truce out of fear of the Flame Champion using the True Fire Rune on them again. They needed devise a plan of action against him. They heard rumors that the Flame Champion had disapeared, used that time period to confirm it, and then invaded again. Notice that the only monkey wrench to their plan occured when a Second Flame Champion emerged.

We never know what Hikusaak mentions, but we do know that he gave the order to make Luc Bishop. So, obviously he backed Luc's wishes with Harmonian forces. So, to say that Luc was totally independent of Harmonia is quite false. Sasaria fought alongside Luc eventhough it was against his wishes for most of the game because it was an order from on high that he could not disobey. Harmonia was involved in Luc's quest for the True Elemental Runes no matter how you look at it.

If they can make Luc and Sasarai to house True Runes why couldn't they do the same for the True Fire Rune?

Who is to say that they didn't try this? Just because we don't see another clone doesn't mean they haven't tried to create clones that could bear any True Rune they possessed. But, who is to say that each True Rune would allow for a false human to bear them? A clone could have been created to bear the True Fire Rune and the True Fire Rune could have just chosen not to join with the clone. Like I said before, a True Rune chooses its bearer not the bearer choosing its True Rune.

But, who cares. I was actually incredibly bored of doing Keyboarding earlier today so I decided to come on here and post. We're both just arguing something that can't be proven either way so what's the point.

Awww, don't give up. What is the point of have a discussion forum if we can't discuss things!? Discussions like these are tools for obtaining further knowledge that would not have been uncovered. We are introducing interesting views that would not have been introduced otherwise. Who cares whether they will be proven true or false? That doesn't matter in the slightest. It's providing new ways of looking at things, that's what matters.

[Luko]

I have a bad memory so i apologise in advance if this was answered in three but i just don't remember >.> but was it ever explained how Wyatt Recieved the true water rune? As im righting this im thinking it had to do with alma kinan but that might just be because thats where it was sealed for chris.

[Jowy Atreides]

No, he just gets it, somehow.

Leknaat in general is a complete enigma. You've got nothing to support whether she was hiding or doing something else entirely. Pretty much nothing can be assumed about her.

If Harmonia wanted the Sovereign Rune and Windy's half of the Gate Rune they'd just crush the SME. The SME was created through a rebellion within Harmonia so it's very existence is an insult to Harmonia. Destroying them would not only gain them the Sovereign Rune and Windy's half but also restore Harmonia's lost pride. Why have they not moved in for the kill? I can't say why or why not but with a million soldiers I'd say it wouldn't be that much of a challenge for Harmonia.

The Gate Rune Clan had trained magicians? When was that said? The Village of The Hidden Rune was hiding the Souleater but its villagers didn't seem too skilled with magic at all.

How Harmonia found the Gate Rune Clan is also not known. But yeah, I'm sure they would've had to have gone to great lengths to find it. But an army needed to crush one little village? Doesn't sound logical, especially if Hikusaak might've been a member of that force.

The truce was just to end the war, not to regain lost territory. Even if Harmonia wasn't after True Runes there's no reason why they should leave Grassland.

Windy's after Harmonia, yes. What's that supporting/disproving? Windy gaining the support of Yuber and Neclord doesn't seem to say much. Of course for any circumstance you could say there's an ulterior motive but it seems she just wanted to find some True Runes with her "friends". If I wanted to go True Rune hunting I wouldn't want to be alone. Hell, I never like being alone. I'd much rather do something with friends then by myself.

Hikusaak's motives behind making Luc a Bishop are completely unknown too. Check out this topic: Luc and how he became a Bishop. But that's also just supporting Harmonia wanting True Runes, something we already know.

The True Earth Rune and True Wind Runes were both fooled into thinking that Luc and Sasarai were real humans. Why not the True Fire Rune as well? Hikusaak has some way of making the perfect vessel for True Runes (Luc and Sasarai obviously) so why could he not do the same with the True Fire and make it work? There's also the orbs that Luc used to hold the other True Elemental Runes in place so he could use them to further his goals. This was not done with the TFR. Maybe the orbs were a brand new invention, not many ways to prove or disprove this one.

[demon eye]

Leknaat in general is a complete enigma. You've got nothing to support whether she was hiding or doing something else entirely. Pretty much nothing can be assumed about her.

And you have something to support that she isn't? We can assume all we want, whether the assumption is true or false is the problem. The fact is, we know Leknaat can see into the future. She fled the Magician's Tower for a reason. Windy wasn't around, so what would be another good reason for fleeing?

If Harmonia wanted the Sovereign Rune and Windy's half of the Gate Rune they'd just crush the SME. The SME was created through a rebellion within Harmonia so it's very existence is an insult to Harmonia. Destroying them would not only gain them the Sovereign Rune and Windy's half but also restore Harmonia's lost pride. Why have they not moved in for the kill? I can't say why or why not but with a million soldiers I'd say it wouldn't be that much of a challenge for Harmonia.

If they wanted the Sovereign Rune they could have crushed the SME, but let's think about that for a second. Would that be wise? Here's a bit of useful info on Gregminster. Gregminster was once a part of the Holy Kingdom of Harmonia. Harmonia still has ties within the SME. Destroying the SME would in essence be hurting Harmonia instead of aiding it. It would be better for them to allow the SME to exist and proceed as it would be too much of a risk to Harmonia to intervene.

Whether it insults Harmonia in order to let it exist or not, there is just too much of a risk for Harmonia to get involved at the present time. Instead of conquering SME it would be a much better idea to take the areas around them..which they do, in order to influence them to act according to their will.

There's no need to take over a country when you can already influence their actions. Like mentioned before, Harmonia has enough time to patiently wait to make their move on the Toran Republic. Besides, the SME pretty much destroyed itself with inner turmoil. No need for Harmonian involvement at all.

You make a good argument. Harmonia knows exactly where the Sovereign Rune is and still has made no movements towards taking it back. This would be the the first example of Harmonia not going back to invade a country that is known to have a True Rune. But, we can't assume that they have given up on efforts to retain the True Rune.

I believe that Harmonia gave the Sovereign Rune to Kranach Rugner much like how they did the Beast Rune with Highland, but I believe I am wrong. I will have to research that. It may have just been a family heirloom (King Dragon Sword which has the Sovereign Rune embedded in it) from the Rugner family. Either way, we can't assume that Harmonia has just forgotten about the True Rune.

The Gate Rune Clan had trained magicians? When was that said? The Village of The Hidden Rune was hiding the Souleater but its villagers didn't seem too skilled with magic at all.

Yeah, I guess Windy and Leknaat learned all their magic from osmosis..hmmm. As for the Soul Eater, it was at the Village of the Hidden Rune. This was a simple village, not an entire clan. The Gate Rune Clan was established for the sole purpose of protecting the Gate Rune, not to hide it. The Village of the Hidden Rune was where the village chief hid the Soul Eater.

There was no intent of ever having conflict. The village chief was hiding the Soul Eater. The Gate Rune was protecting the Gate Rune. Two different words with very different meanings. It would make sense that the Gate Rune Clan had trained sorceress and the Village of the Hidden Rune didn't.

How Harmonia found the Gate Rune Clan is also not known. But yeah, I'm sure they would've had to have gone to great lengths to find it. But an army needed to crush one little village? Doesn't sound logical, especially if Hikusaak might've been a member of that force.

Well, the fact is that they did mass an army to take the Gate Rune Clan. Soldiers under the Harmonian army came to the Gate Rune Clan, burnt it to the ground, killed all except two of the members all in search of the Gate Rune. You say it doesn't sound logical, but was it really logical for Windy to manipulate Barbarossa (remember she thought she was controlling him with her Conquerer Rune) and start a war in order to obtain the Soul Eater in which she knew was held by Ted, a single person? Was it logical for Cray to begin a war to get back the Rune of Punishment in which he gave away in the first place?

I'd say it's plenty logical of Harmonia to send an entire army to the Gate Rune Clan. They feared the Clan as being composed of evil witches and they had the Gate Rune. They needed to take any precautions necessary to make sure the mission of attaining the True Rune succeeded.

The truce was just to end the war, not to regain lost territory. Even if Harmonia wasn't after True Runes there's no reason why they should leave Grassland.

I agree that it wasn't to regain lost territory, so the fact that Harmonia was still present in the Grasslands had nothing to do w ith land. They already had lands in the Grasslands. Their presence there was of another reason. Harmonia did not have to have a continual presence in the Grasslands when they already had conquered half of the lands there, so why were they still present?

Windy's after Harmonia, yes. What's that supporting/disproving? Windy gaining the support of Yuber and Neclord doesn't seem to say much. Of course for any circumstance you could say there's an ulterior motive but it seems she just wanted to find some True Runes with her "friends". If I wanted to go True Rune hunting I wouldn't want to be alone. Hell, I never like being alone. I'd much rather do something with friends then by myself.

Windy being after Harmonia proves that she has ongoing issues with the Holy Kingdom. If she did not fear them, then she would not be seeking out the Soul Eater to exact her revenge against them. All the effort she has wasted on obtaining the Soul Eater shows that she still fears the Holy Kingdom and seeks more power to rid herself of it.

Windy, Yuber and Neclord don't seem to be "friends" at all. They have a loose alliance at most. She needs their strength and it's not just for obtaining the Soul Eater. Yuber and Neclord are very rarely seen with Windy at all during the majority of the 1st game.

Also, Neclord and Yuber seem to have little to no interest in hunting True Runes. They both had their own agendas. Windy used them for backup. She could obtain the Soul Eater by herself if she chose to do so..she had two chances to do so. The fact is that Windy feared retaliation to her actions. And by destroying villages ain search for the Soul Eater she was sure to draw attention from the Holy Kingdom. She needed powerful individuals alongside of her to handle any type of problems she might have faced.

Hikusaak's motives behind making Luc a Bishop are completely unknown too. Check out this topic: Luc and how he became a Bishop. But that's also just supporting Harmonia wanting True Runes, something we already know

Well, yes, Harmonia wants all of the True Runes. They have searched for them for many years. I guess that doesn't really add to this discussion at all. I'm staying with the opinion that you just don't hunt down all these True Runes, which hold so much power and are basically dieties of the Suikoden World, to just study them for a short time and then give them up. It would be rather fruitless to go through all that trouble.

The True Earth Rune and True Wind Runes were both fooled into thinking that Luc and Sasarai were real humans. Why not the True Fire Rune as well? Hikusaak has some way of making the perfect vessel for True Runes (Luc and Sasarai obviously) so why could he not do the same with the True Fire and make it work? There's also the orbs that Luc used to hold the other True Elemental Runes in place so he could use them to further his goals. This was not done with the TFR. Maybe the orbs were a brand new invention, not many ways to prove or disprove this one.

I find it very hard to believe that a True Rune can be fooled. We have seen True Runes reject bearers time and time again. They can be forcibly removed, but we have never seen them forcibly placed onto a bearer in any shape or form. The True Runes do what is best for them and will always choose the bearer which best suits them.

Luc was the perfect vessel for the True Wind Rune just like Sasarai. Luc and Sasarai were created for the exact purpose of being the perfect vessel for those True Runes. As we all know, you don't have to be true humans or even human to bear a True Rune, so there is no reason for the True Runes to be fooled into believing they were true humans at all.

Like I've stated before, we cannot assume to know all of the methods that Harmonia went through to maintain the True Fire Rune and we don't know how long it takes to make the perfect vessel. Harmonia might not have had the time to create the perfect vessel for the True Fire Rune. And recall that Luc is not a "perfect" vessel for the True Wind Rune. He is a defect and he was still able to completely bear the True Wind Rune. Again, no one knows what efforts Harmonia went through to keep the True Fire Rune. It may have been stolen before they could make great strides to keep it.

And the orbs they used were to forcibly remove and store the True Elemental Runes. Harmonia would not have to use those orbs since they already had the True Fire Rune, they just hadn't devised a way to utilize its powers yet.

[Jowy Atreides]

Harmonia controls the SME?

Toran
Toran is a temperate region situated south of Dunan. This area used to belong to the Holy Kingdom of Harmonia. In IS 230, a powerful aristocrat, Kranach "Knight of the Scarlet Moon" Rugner proclaimed independence from Harmonia during a civil war . The Scarlet Moon Empire was thus formed, and ruled the area for the next two centuries until Emperor Barbarossa Rugner was ousted by rebels in the Gate Rune Wars in IS 457. The area is currently ruled by the Toran Republic.

The situation with the SME is not the same as the situation with Highland. This land was not given to Kranach Rugner by Harmonia it was stolen from them.

I didn't say I had anything to support Leknaat not hiding. There's no reason for her to stay at the Magician's Isle and there's no reason for her to leave. But she does leave, and the reason for this is unknown. She's got magical wards on the place and yet she leaves. No idea what's going on in her head, she was intended to be a mystery.

Could you provide some sort of a link that shows that an entire army was made to crush the Gate Rune Clan? All I found was this from Suikosource. (Note: if Suikox has more information then forgive me, Suikox.com is blocked here at my school.)

IS 70?
Harmonia massacres the Gate Rune Clan, Windy and Leknaat divide the Gate rune and flee.

The entries for Windy and Leknaat also just say the village was destroyed.
No army mentioned.


I also just think Yuber and Neclord were just intended to be the "Villianous Posse" used in alot of RPGs. Also, a good way to intimidate Ted's Grandpa without actually hurting him or the precious Soul Eater would be to hire scray-looking individuals to run around with you. Windy hiring them to deal with any possible problems with Harmonia is kinda off, especially since she can just summon a bazillion monsters in an instant and teleport away. Well, how long it took her to summon those monsters in S1 is unknown but it is known that she can do it in mass quantities though.

The True Runes can be fooled, as seen in S3. The orbs used to hold the True Runes were thought to be vessels like Luc and Sasarai, actual living beings. The True Runes have the power to leave if they want and yet they do not, because they believe that the orbs are vessels for them to manipulate. So yeah, True Runes can be fooled.

I think that's about it. If I didn't comment on something then it's because you were right.

[demon eye]

Did I say Harmonia controlled the SME? I thought I said they had influence on them and not control. If I said control then I apologize as that was not meant. Harmonia had influence on the territories surrounding the SME, so it was not necessary to directly control them. And the SME, self-destructed by itself. It was no need for Harmonia to directly be involved.

The situation with the SME is not the same as the situation with Highland. This land was not given to Kranach Rugner by Harmonia it was stolen from them.

By me stating that the situation is similar, I was referring to the fact that SME and Highland both have True Runes Harmonia want and know exactly where they are at but can't claim them as of yet. But, just like Highland, SME is influenced by Harmonia quite a bit. So, they share many similarities in that aspect. Highland is directly under Harmonia's control, but SME is influenced by Harmonia due to the fact that many influential neighboring countries are partly under Harmonian rule..mainly Highland.

I didn't say I had anything to support Leknaat not hiding. There's no reason for her to stay at the Magician's Isle and there's no reason for her to leave. But she does leave, and the reason for this is unknown. She's got magical wards on the place and yet she leaves. No idea what's going on in her head, she was intended to be a mystery.

I never stated that you did have support, but I'm giving evidence that would support her hiding from Harmonia and not just Windy and you were just stating that we can't know for sure that she is hiding from them which is obviously true. I was just looking for evidential support which would disprove my theory that she is in fact hiding from Harmonia.

Could you provide some sort of a link that shows that an entire army was made to crush the Gate Rune Clan? All I found was this from Suikosource. (Note: if Suikox has more information then forgive me, Suikox.com is blocked here at my school.)

My statement will depend on what you consider an army. I consider part of the Harmonian Army to be a group of soldiers trained by the Holy Kingdom. It doesn't have to be the full Harmonian Regiment to be an army, but just armed soldiers of Harmonia led by a captain or general. An army doesn't have to be a huge mass of bodies, it can be a small, specially trained unti. Just a matter of semantics and what you consider an army to be.

I also just think Yuber and Neclord were just intended to be the "Villianous Posse" used in alot of RPGs. Also, a good way to intimidate Ted's Grandpa without actually hurting him or the precious Soul Eater would be to hire scray-looking individuals to run around with you. Windy hiring them to deal with any possible problems with Harmonia is kinda off, especially since she can just summon a bazillion monsters in an instant and teleport away. Well, how long it took her to summon those monsters in S1 is unknown but it is known that she can do it in mass quantities though.

Umm, if I remember correctly, Sera was specially chosen to train in the One Temple because of her magical abilities as a sorceress. So, I find it hard to believe that the magicians would be so intimidated by monsters being summoned in large quantities. If that was the case, Windy would have taken on Harmonia long ago, but she still doesn't.

And I think we are in agreement with Neclord and Yuber's purposes. They were there to act as a deterrent to anyone who would try to harm Windy. She obviously does not need protection from normal civillians, so they would have to serve as a deterrent to a greater force. You are right that we can't say she got them specifically to guard her from Harmonia, but seeing as she seems to be able to hold her own against most prominent forces that would pose a threat against her, so it would have to be something quite formidable.

The True Runes can be fooled, as seen in S3. The orbs used to hold the True Runes were thought to be vessels like Luc and Sasarai, actual living beings. The True Runes have the power to leave if they want and yet they do not, because they believe that the orbs are vessels for them to manipulate. So yeah, True Runes can be fooled.

Those orbs weren't used to fool the True Runes. They forcibly ripped the True Runes from their natural bearers and forcibly held them within them. It wasn't an artificial vessel, but a prison for the True Runes. The fact that the bearers of those True Runes were clearly in pain when Luc used the orbs on the bearers to take the True Runes clearly shows that the True Runes weren't fooled, but made to leave their bearers and they weren't very agreeable with it at all. Recall each bearer's extreme pain when the True Runes were forcibly removed. No, the True Runes were not fooled at all.

[Jowy Atreides]

I'm 100& sure Luc said that Luc and Sasarai were just like those orbs whenever he showed an orb to Sasarai in S3. The orbs were made to seem like vessels so the True Runes would sit there and remain dormant.

Sarah can summon monsters but I'm in doubt that she's as good as Windy is when it comes to summoning monsters.

How do they influence the SME with the territories surrounding it, more specifically Highland? Highland's nowhere near the SME and what areas does Harmonia control near the SME? If you've got something to back this up then I'll drop it but I don't see a thing.

[Fists Of Protocol]

Hmm, I'm sure I already replied here but I'll do so again.

I'll agree on what Rocky said holding some kind of significance in what Harmonia is doing. Troy or the Govenor said something to the effect of "are we nothing but rune collectors for Harmonia?"

When I saw that I kinda went "hmmm"

[son_michael]

I played and beat suikoden 3 a few months ago and I remember the events clearly

the orb that luc had did not rip the true runes from the bearers

it was the true wind and true earth rune combined that was able to forcibly remove geddoes true lightning rune

In fact im not 100 percent sure about this but i think i remember luc held all the true runes he stole in that 1 orb

that orb wasnt a prison because if it was a prison then the true earth rune would not have obeyed sarahs command to aid lucs true wind rune

the orb was a way of carry true runes around without having to become the bearer however it seems like the orb allows you to use the true runes power without having to become the bearer but if I remember correctly I think luc says the orb is experimental and may only be able to hold the true runes for a little while {so thats why he was in a rush to get the true runes out of the orb and into the ruins where he would destroy the true wind rune}