Dumb Luc & Yuber Theory

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:11 pm

YAYYYYYYYYYYYY I was right!!! Tanx SARS.

Therefore Windy went crazy after recieving half of the rune or just got power hungry. Either way this lil piece of info just makes my theory VERY possible.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:18 pm

Yes, I did mean due to Windy..sorry. Well, that makes sense. But, the fact that Leknaat and Windy knew how to split the Gate Rune suggest to me that she wouldn't need to go through all the trouble of killing Leknaat, the last surviving member of their clan, in order to get the other half back, but I guess Leknaat wouldn't just give it up without a fight.

But, wanting to kill Leknaat in order to get the other half of the Gate Rune really has nothing to do with Windy hating Leknaat which answers the question of whether or not Windy hates Leknaat. So, Windy doesn't hate Leknaat, she would just willingly kill her for the other half of the Gate Rune.

lol

And Black Fang, I definitely understand where you're coming from. My apologies to you.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:26 pm

No appologies needed. Man you should join Harmonia at suikox. We'd rake up some massive armies discussin stuff like this lol.

Anyways, I find it pretty hard to beleive that she likes her and wants to kill her. Theres got to be even a slightest bit of hate in there somewhere.

The fact that they split the gate at the beginning makes my theory all the more possible. Either Hikusaak caught her and is controling her in some way or the more likely event is that she just became nuts (and/or power hungry) after taking the rune. Thats how Leknaat ended up with the other one and why Windy dislikes her (I won't use hate as thats a lil too strong).

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:28 pm

Well if the rune made her crazy than she would hate her

and from most of those stories there is some sort of hate behind the friendship. You don't just kill anyone for no good reason....well I guess you could but its not usual.

Eroschilles · Post by **Eroschilles** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:12 am

Windy wanting to kill her has nothing to do with emotions. It's just business on her part. She needs the other half of the rune and will kill whoever she needs to so she can get it. She doesn't necessarily hate Leknaat, so just needs to kill her to get the rune.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:05 am

No! She doesn't NEED the other half of the rune. She WANTS it. She is GREEDY. Just think about it logically. Windy takes rune and becomes a power hungry. She chases down Leknaat for the other half of the rune, but Leknaat escapes. Windy gets pissed at her. This scenario has been repeating for centuries now. There is no doubt that Windy hates her.

Windy isn't associated with the mafia or the yakuza to keep it just business. She isn't interested in money. If you're going to classify it as business I'd advise you look up the word in the dictionary and find out its actual meaning.

Besides, Leknaat is her sister and that alone makes it personal and more than "just business".

I've never seen a statement that she "hates" Leknaat, but one can always contrast that to the fact that she never said she "didn't hate" her. In these cases it is best to gather all the facts and come up with a conclusion using simple common sense.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:03 am

In now way does Windy have to chase Leknaat, everyone knows exactly where she is. She's been there for centuries. And we can't say that Windy is wholely motivated by greed. If that was the case, she would never have split the Gate Rune with Leknaat in the first place. She could have kept the whole thing and left poor little blind Leknaat to die at the hands of Harmonian soldiers.

Also, the fact that Windy knows Leknaat really does make it a personal matter, but the reasons behind Windy wanting to murder Leknaat is solely rested on her want to possess the other part of the Gate Rune. If Windy could retrieve Leknaat's part of the Gate Rune without murdering her, she would probably go that route, but seeing as Windy does not know the method of stripping True Runes from bearers, she has to take it off of Leknaat's rotting corpse in order to get it.

It's all business related. The quest for power really isn't rooted in greed anyway, it's all truly just a business venture. Windy's want for power to exact her revenge on Harmonia has resulted in her making alliances and gathering information. Hence she found out how to possess two True Runes at once. She realized that she only had half of a True Rune and she needed two in order to have the power to accomplish her dreams.

She thought to herself, hmm I know where I can gain the other half of my Gate Rune in order to have at least one full True Rune, yes, my clan sister Leknaat! So she decided to possess Leknaat's part of the Gate Rune and then she got whiff of the Soul Eater's powers and decided to possess it in order to do her two True Runes possessed at one time magic thingamajig in order to be all-powerful. All business, Windy was just fulfilling the requirements she thought she needed to be powerful enough to exact her plans.

I mean, if we call Windy greedy for wanting more power, then we would have to call the Flame Champion greedy, as well. Hell, he broke into Harmonia and stole the True Fire Rune from them! But, he did that because he needed power inorder to fight the war to save the Grasslands. He wouldn't have broke into Harmonia if it wasn't necessary and I believe Windy sees that killing Leknaat to get the other half of the Gate Rune is a necessity for her to accomplish her goals.

Harukaze · Post by **Harukaze** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:22 am

Sorry to do this Black Fang, but you opened yourself up to it:
Main Entry: busiÂ·ness
Pronunciation: 'biz-n&s, -n&z, Southern also 'bid-
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
1 archaic : purposeful activity : BUSYNESS
2 a : ROLE, FUNCTION <how the human mind went about its business of learning -- H. A. Overstreet> b : an immediate task or objective : MISSION <what is your business here> c : a particular field of endeavor <the best in the business>
3 a : a usually commercial or mercantile activity engaged in as a means of livelihood : TRADE, LINE <in the restaurant business> b : a commercial or sometimes an industrial enterprise; also : such enterprises <the business district> c : usually economic dealings : PATRONAGE <took their business elsewhere>
4 : AFFAIR, MATTER <the whole business got out of hand> <business as usual>
5 : CREATION, CONCOCTION
6 : movement or action (as lighting a cigarette) by an actor intended especially to establish atmosphere, reveal character, or explain a situation -- called also stage business
7 a : personal concern <none of your business> b : RIGHT <you have no business speaking to me that way>
8 a : serious activity requiring time and effort and usually the avoidance of distractions <got down to business> <she means business> b : maximum effort
9 a : a damaging assault b : REBUKE, TONGUE-LASHING c : DOUBLE CROSS
10 : a bowel movement -- used especially of pets
synonyms BUSINESS, COMMERCE, TRADE, INDUSTRY, TRAFFIC mean activity concerned with the supplying and distribution of commodities. BUSINESS may be an inclusive term but specifically designates the activities of those engaged in the purchase or sale of commodities or in related financial transactions. COMMERCE and TRADE imply the exchange and transportation of commodities. INDUSTRY applies to the producing of commodities, especially by manufacturing or processing, usually on a large scale. TRAFFIC applies to the operation and functioning of public carriers of goods and persons. synonym see in addition WORK

Harukaze · Post by **Harukaze** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:27 am

Sorry but only one definition out of the ten has anything to do with how you defined business. Clearly Windy's actions -can- be characterized as just business. Remember, as demon eye eluded to but didn't actually say - likely because he didn't think he needed to do so - Windy and Leknaat are -not- blood sisters. They are from a Clan whose members called each other siblings, but that does not mean they themselves were; I believe it has been confimed on numerous occasions in fact that they are -not.-

Regardless, I fully subscribe to the notion that Windy's desire for the other half of the Gate Rune -was- business; she felt she needed the power in order to strike back at Harmonia and - it could easily be surmised - keep them from doing the same to others that they did to her own people. After all, history is sprinkled with such incidents, and as knowledgeable as Windy was, she was probably capable of hearing about such events.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:29 pm

Ok, first of all I'm going to say that this is my last post in this thread regarding this topic. The name of this thread is "Dumb Luc & Yuber Theory" and we've managed to turne it into a duscussion about Windy and Leknaat. If anyone wishes to continue this topic, make a new thread for it or ask a mod to split it from this one.

demon eye wrote:everyone knows exactly where she is.

Barbadossa knew and so did Futch from what I recall, and now your starting gang of course, but if that makes everyone....then the suikoden world is smaller then I thought.

demon eye wrote:And we can't say that Windy is wholely motivated by greed. If that was the case, she would never have split the Gate Rune with Leknaat in the first place.

Read what I post carefuly before adding these comments. Here is a simple scenario. There is this good guy with no money. Suddenly he wins the lottery and becomes very greedy.

Now just replace the words guy=windy and lottery=front gate rune. People that have power already get greedy, as they taste what life can be like. Another reason for them to split it up at the beginning was because if Hikusaak caught one he woudn't have the whole rune.

demon eye wrote:left poor little blind Leknaat to die at the hands of Harmonian soldiers

We know that Leknaat was blinded during that battle by the Harmonian soldiers, but we have no idea if she already had the rune at that time. It is quite possible that she did and just as likely that she didn't.

demon eye wrote:If Windy could retrieve Leknaat's part of the Gate Rune without murdering her, she would probably go that route, but seeing as Windy does not know the method of stripping True Runes from bearers, she has to take it off of Leknaat's rotting corpse in order to get it.

There is no evidence she would go that route demon. You're just pulling this stuff out from thin air to help defend your arguments without any proof from an official source or use of simple logic. If you make an argument using common sense, try and back it up using only official proof rather than going deeper and deeper in with more assumptions.

demon eye wrote:Windy's want for power to exact her revenge on Harmonia has resulted in her making alliances and gathering information. Hence she found out how to possess two True Runes at once. She realized that she only had half of a True Rune and she needed two in order to have the power to accomplish her dreams.

I've no doubt that she wanted revenge on Harmonia (as did Leknaat), but wanting revenge doesn't make her immune to greed, if anything, it makes her more susceptible to it. More power, more soldiers, more potch....more more more. Catch my drift? O and btw, when the two halves of the gate rune merge, they become one true rune. Windy wanted to posses the True Gate Rune as well as the Souleater (she also had another powerful unique rune that she used to control the other generals but it wasn't a true one).

demon eye wrote:in order to be all-powerful.

Well if she is going for all-powerful, that sounds pretty greedy to me, don't you think.

demon eye wrote:I mean, if we call Windy greedy for wanting more power, then we would have to call the Flame Champion greedy, as well.

He was in a way. He had a good reason for being greedy, but he needed the power, just like Jowy and Riou did. They all needed to protect those they loved. Windy isn't protecting anyone though, she was only looking out for number one, hence why I say she is greedy (and selfish).

Now, I did purposely open myself to that Harukaze. You've just taken on a commerce major there.

Bad move on your part hehe (good ol Silverberg tactics). So now, lets see here, you were obviously refering to number 3 here (correct me if I'm wrong), and from that definition I don't see what Windy wants to do with Leknaat as anything commercial or mercantile in any way. Be a little more precise with what you mean as I don't fully understand your points here. This also applies to when you say "history is sprinkled with such incidents". Which incidents exactly??

Harukaze · Post by **Harukaze** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:34 pm

My points were rather simple, I thought: you said that Windy's desire for the second half of the Rune could not be "just business" because it had nothing to do with the pursuit of money, and that because they were sisters it's personal and not business.

Windy isn't associated with the mafia or the yakuza to keep it just business. She isn't interested in money. If you're going to classify it as business I'd advise you look up the word in the dictionary and find out its actual meaning.

Besides, Leknaat is her sister and that alone makes it personal and more than "just business".

So A) business doesn't have to be about money [and this business most assuredly is not; I am not the one who seemed to claim it had to be] and B) they are Clan sisters, not blood sisters. There -is- a difference there.

As for the incidents to which I refer, simple: how many times has Harmonia invaded and destroyed nations and families and villages and cities smaller and weaker than it? The Gate Rune Clan, Le Buque, Sanadia [or Sanady, whichever it was] and Geddoe's Clan all spring to mind rather quickly. And since we only know a little of the history of this world, it isn't that much of a leap to assume those are not the only instances.

The point is here, we know little of Windy's motives except that she wanted to strike back at Harmonia. She wanted the full Gate Rune and Soul Eater, and was willing to kill their bearers for it. Mind you, she is -not- the one who started the war in the Empire: that was Odessa. Beyond the killing of the bearers, how far was she willing to go and for what purpose? We cannot know these answers. I'm not saying you're wrong: she could well simply have been power mad and greedy. But she could also have been doing what she did in order to put a stop to Harmonia's militaristic conquests, to prevent another tragedy like the one that befell her own people and who knows how many others?

EDIT: Anyway, this actually seems to be a rather stirring debate, so I would not mind at all if it were to continue. Perhaps a moderator could allow us to split this off?

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:07 pm

Barbadossa knew and so did Futch from what I recall, and now your starting gang of course, but if that makes everyone....then the suikoden world is smaller then I thought.

Funny, sp you want to argue semantics with me, eh? lol. That's an ol' Blight House tactic.

I'm sure you're wise enough to know that I was referring to "everbody" that mattered.

Read what I post carefuly before adding these comments. Here is a simple scenario. There is this good guy with no money. Suddenly he wins the lottery and becomes very greedy.

Now just replace the words guy=windy and lottery=front gate rune. People that have power already get greedy, as they taste what life can be like. Another reason for them to split it up at the beginning was because if Hikusaak caught one he woudn't have the whole rune.

LOL. I read your post carefully and posted my response. Whether you follow the logic or not is up to you. Where does Windy, equated to the guy, win the lottery as you say? Like I posted already, you cannot suggest that her motives were purely for greed as you would be saying that the Flame Champion's motives were greed motivated, as well.

I know very well the reasons for Windy and Leknaat splitting the Gate Rune, but what does that have to do with your statement that Windy cannot just be after the other half of the Gate Rune for purely business purposes? As I stated before you cannot assume that greed is Windy's sole motivation. There are plenty of examples of guys seeking power for the right reasons and it not being just for greed. So, please read my posts carefully before making comments.

We know that Leknaat was blinded during that battle by the Harmonian soldiers, but we have no idea if she already had the rune at that time. It is quite possible that she did and just as likely that she didn't.

I don't see the point you're trying to make with this statement. Sorry, I just don't. If Leknaat was blind before or after she got her half of the Gate Rune really doesn't matter. I was just throwing the little blind Leknaat in there for comical reasons. The point was that if Windy was just going after the Gate Rune for greedy purposes in order to gain power then she could have taken it from Leknaat by force at that time and then left Leknaat for dead.

If she would have done that she would have had the full power of the Gate Rune and probably would have been able to escape easily. I mean that would make more sense using your analogy of the guy and the lottery. Wouldn't it have been easier to just have let Leknaat be killed then kill her now that she has become a powerful magician?? Think about it.

There is no evidence she would go that route demon. You're just pulling this stuff out from thin air to help defend your arguments without any proof from an official source or use of simple logic. If you make an argument using common sense, try and back it up using only official proof rather than going deeper and deeper in with more assumptions.

And there's plenty of evidence to support your statement that Windy wants to kill Leknaat out of greed and could not possibly just want her dead for the half of the Gate Rune she possesses for pure business purposes, huh? And I'm just pulling stuff out of thin air and I have no official sources? A guy and the lottery is firm, canon evidence straight from the creators of the Suikoden series, huh?

I think you should take your own advice about using official proof, as well, oh right, you can't because nowhere in the game will they come out and state it. Give me a break, this is a SPECULATION thread. lol. Let me ask you, where is your evidence that it is expressly stated that Windy wants to kill Leknaat out of greed? LOL. Sorry, it's just funny how you are telling people to do one thing and you do the exact opposite.

but wanting revenge doesn't make her immune to greed, if anything, it makes her more susceptible to it. More power, more soldiers, more potch....more more more. Catch my drift? O and btw, when the two halves of the gate rune merge, they become one true rune. Windy wanted to posses the True Gate Rune as well as the Souleater (she also had another powerful unique rune that she used to control the other generals but it wasn't a true one).

Read my post, I never said she was immune to greed. I said her motives for wanting the other half of the Gate Rune and more power is not solely motivated by greed. So, yes, I do catch your drift. And yes, I know that when the other half of the Gate Rune is in Windy's possession it would become one True Rune, hence I stated that she wanted the Soul Eater and Leknaat's half of the Gate Rune to gain two True Runes. I believe that's what I said.

Well if she is going for all-powerful, that sounds pretty greedy to me, don't you think.

No, that doesn't sound pretty greedy to me at all. I believe my example of the Flame Champion expressed my sentiments on that subject best. Windy wanted to become all-powerful in order to gain revenge on Harmonia which destroyed her clan. It really has nothing to do with greed. Not every want for power is motivated solely by greed.

He was in a way. He had a good reason for being greedy, but he needed the power, just like Jowy and Riou did. They all needed to protect those they loved. Windy isn't protecting anyone though, she was only looking out for number one, hence why I say she is greedy (and selfish).

The statements you make can't be debated. You have a different opinion of what constitutes as greed than I do. I believe Riou, Jowy and the Flame Champion weren't greedy at all. So, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that subject.

Also, how do you know that Windy was only looking out for number one? Just because she was willing to kill others to accomplish her goals she was only looking out for number one? So, Luc was only looking out for number one, too, right? The destruction of Harmonia would be beneficial to many people you know. How do you know Windy did not consider that? But, I guess I'm just pulling more stuff out of thin air again.

So, the search for power when it only serves you constitutes as being greedy? That's a very baseless and closed minded view. Consider this, if knowledge is power and knowledge can be gained through enlightenment, then Confuscious was a very greedy person as he desperately saught that enlightenment according to your statements. Just me pulling more stuff out of thin air, though.

The main point of this long diatribe is that you can't just state that people who believe Windy wants Leknaat dead do to just pure business reasons with no greed or hate involved and use speculation to support that are wrong and lack evidential support, when your statement that Windy wants to kill Leknaat out of greed lacks evidential support and is also pulled out of thin air. Speculation is speculation is speculation. Agree to disagree and feel free to express your arguments, but you have to do better than trying to discredit one speculation with another speculation.

And now we go back to the topic at hand. Who's for another Dumb Luc & Yuber theory??

Harukaze · Post by **Harukaze** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:50 pm

Want a dumb Luc and Yuber theory? I have one!

Yuber: Luc, I am your father.
Luc: Noooooo!

*runs like hell*

Black Knight Yuber · Post by **Black Knight Yuber** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:27 pm

Yuber has times when he's very impatient and patient. In Suikoden II when Luca Blight was still around Yuber made an appearance with Luca. Luca says something to Yuber "you're late." I don't remember but I think he said he was sorry for his late arrival. The situation there didn't seem to bother Yuber since he knew he'd arive but the timing was a bit off. He can spend all the time he wants doing whatever that pleases him. It's not often that Yuber gets to spend time on a human world since he is a summon from another dimension.

Yuber's impatient behavior happens when things don't go smoothly or as planned. In the Ancient Highway Luc couldn't open the shrine. Yuber said "Why isn't it opening this shouldn't be taken so long." Yuber claimed that he would destroy the barrier that never happened. Not to mention the comments he makes when he losses in battle calling the others CHEATERS! At the beginning of Luc's POV, Luc stalls a bit of his intentions of destroying his True Wind Rune. This makes Yuber unhappy stating that you better not be hesitating on what you intend to do. Sarah then stands up against him with Albert saying no time for arguements. Last point when him and Albert arrive at Chisha Village, Yuber demands that some lady with exceptional skill was here I want to challenge her. Hugo stands up to Yuber and duel. He massacres Hugo and the duel wasn't even worth his time. Showed patience though since Yuber said he had such little time for a meaningless duel.

Side note Yuber said he never heard of Karaya Village nor Lucia for that matter. In Suikoden II they fought together at Greenhill in the battle. Was that just an errorÂ¿