Nadir is actually Roy.

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
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Pen
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Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby Pen » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:01 pm

Think with me guys:

Roy ending in S5 says that he turns into an ACTOR and decide to travel North. What there is on north of Falena? The Northern Continent, the place where Suikoden III happens. Nadir was what? A mysterious masket ACTOR. Actors are not that common on the Suikoden World, they are indeed very rare, which would make Roy and Nadir share a very rare profession.

But of course, this isn't enough, so heres more: If you investigate Nadir, Kidd will tell that he used to be part of a "Three man band", exactly the same number of members on Roy bandit group: Roy, Faylen and Faylon.

While Roy hair is brown and Nadir hair is grayish, this could simple mean Roy aged, since the difference from Suikoden V to Suikoden III would make Roy get some gray hair due the age difference, that why his hair looks more grayish than brown.

So, there is fundament for this theory?

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby wataru14 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:28 pm

They are different Stars. They cannot be the same person.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:32 pm

I think it's more likely that Nadir, Roy and Chapman formed a 3 man theatre group. There's as much evidence for that as for your theory.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby Pen » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:34 pm

wataru14 wrote:They are different Stars. They cannot be the same person.


Stars can change, we saw that several times in the series, like Tomo.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby sticky-runes » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:44 pm

First of all, this idea has already been brought up on this site.

Roy was not part of a three man band, because one of his companions was a girl.

Nobody else changes stars in other games. Tomos star is determined by whether you choose Valeria or kasumi, but there is no gaming mechanic affecting Roy or nadirs stars. They are who they are.

And finally, suikoden 5 sucks if you go with the ending where Roy is still alive. He had one of the most badass death scenes in the entire series, and making that non-cannon would be stupid.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:50 am

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13103

Pen wrote:Stars can change, we saw that several times in the series, like Tomo.

Roy is the Chizoku star in S5, Nadir is the Chisei star in S3. So you’re saying 1 character had different stars in 2 different games, so he switched stars. Tomo doesn’t switch. Depending on your decision of recruiting either Kasumi or Valeria, you will either get a Tomo who is born under the Tensyo star or a Tomo born under the Chikyu star. As player you’re basically defining her past fate. The reason for this is that characters cannot change the star they’re born under (in this case Valeria and Kasumi). So the Tomo thing does rather disprove your theory. The same is true for the monster stars in S2: it’s the player’s choice under which star they’re born, but they do not switch.

The only exception would be Young Viki / Viki. Perhaps the makers were so much in love with the idea of having 2 Vikis that they agreed on breaking the rules of the SoD concept. It was inevitable.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby Pen » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:16 am

sticky-runes wrote:And finally, suikoden 5 sucks if you go with the ending where Roy is still alive. He had one of the most badass death scenes in the entire series, and making that non-cannon would be stupid.


I dunno why you are being so agressive. I made this thread for fun. Things don't need to be like that, as you are taking this more seriously than I am doing. Okay?

Anyway:

Saddly, just because we liked it doesn't mean it's canon. I like the ending where Jowy dies and Riou got the Rune of Beginning, but saddly, that's not canon(Thanks Suikogaiden!). It's probably due the fact that all Good Endings of Suikoden are canon, since is heavy impled on the sequels that's is the case for all games.

We are at the mercy of the devs, and it seems easier for them work on a post game where the good ending was reached, since, after all, I believe would be hard to work with a Canon where one of the Main Characters didn't put his heart at it, because the Prince would hold the Idiot Ball if the didn't took the advise of his strategist(which in the Suikoden Universe, might as well be the 28th True Rune by themselves, because they are THAT effective) and decided to defend the castle.

Sure, it's makes Roy a badass, but makes the Prince a selfish fool, or in the worse case, a simpleton as a trade, and I don't know if is that what the Devs want for "canon". I think this case was sacrificing a character so the other could shine.

I wished Roy death was on the normal path of the game. :(

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby sticky-runes » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:55 am

I think giving our heroes flaws is a good thing. They're not always perfect and they don't have to be. Sometimes they doubt their friends. Sometimes they ignore their strategists. There's even a part in S4 where Elenor locks you in your room if you try to refuse letting her go into El Eal alone, and she gives you a touching speech about how you pulled her out of her grave.
During the battle to reclaim Greenhill in S2, you can let Apple make all the decisions and have victory without any losses. Or you can choose all the reckless, aggressive options and one of your SoDs will die (I lost Hannah, but I like her, so I reloaded)

And when Roy dies, every character gives their own personal reaction to his sacrifice. I actually got a bit pissed at Kyle for saying "Roy was brave. I almost wish he'd been a coward, then he'd still be alive." After it was Kyle himself who reminded Roy that Lyon was fulfilling her duty to protect the prince when she took a knife in her stomach. I like to think Roy swore his own little oath to live up to his duty as the prince's double and protect all of his friends, including Lyon who was in his final thoughts.

And when Lyon dies she goes to heaven or wherever Suikoden people go when they die, and has to put up with Roy's affections, while the prince gets Georg all to himself. That's my ideal ending.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby Pen » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:37 am

I see where you are getting at.

I can understand the reasoning behind not liking when Tenkai Stars are "basically Jesus" as well, and I understand the felling to give them some flaws to go along with their characters. Sure, they would be still "the choosen one", but less of a "Messiah" and more of a "Hero".

However, I think the people who lost more in this was Faylen, since she loved Roy more than anyone else did, and The Prince, regarding the player actions. He cared a lot for Lyon regarding the player choices, as he go to extra leights to unlock the Dawn Rune power and make sure she gets well.

Maybe that's why that, while I understand your opinion and respect it, I am a sucker for Good Endings when the Good Endings deserve to happen to people who deserve it. That's why I defend Jowy dying and Lyon living at the same time. Jowy sins are too big for him to simple "live the life as a wanderer", there wasn't, for me, any other end for him, he had to die to attone for his crimes, and finally "clean his soul". While Lyon case... she had a screwed past, for me, she deserves to be happy with the boy she likes.

Maybe sometimes I wished Suikoden gave the player more freedom for them to "build their own canon", like Mass Effect did.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby sticky-runes » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:44 am

I'm pretty sure Faylen becomes one of the first female dragon horse riders along with Lun if Roy dies. I think that's a pretty awesome ending for her - she heads off on her own path instead of remaining part of Roy's gang. I've always been interested in seeing how Lun progresses as a dragon cavalrywoman, and seeing her teamed up with Faylen, like female equivalents of Roog and Rahal, would be a nice development.

And I like seeing characters carry on without people they loved. Flik carried on without Odessa. Futch carried on without Black. It's inspiring to see how characters come to terms with the death of someone close to them and to continue going strong.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby Pen » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:25 am

I think that would be a interesting thread on it's own: "What your ideal Suikoden Canon would looks like"?

Now I kinda regreet that this thread is about a silly theory than that.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby BrucePrintscreen » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:49 pm

My ideal Suikoden Canon would look like this:

Image

Okay, sorry...

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sticky-runes
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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby sticky-runes » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:31 am

Image

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby wataru14 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:53 am

I guess Saruman really hates Iluya.

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Re: Nadir is actually Roy.

Postby sticky-runes » Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:07 pm

I thought it was kinda tasteless how Suikoden 4 lets you place a replica of the giant rune cannon in your bath.


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