Numbers in Suikoden

[LGM]

Hi, I'm new here so bear with me.

Didn't really know where to post this, so this seemed the best place to do so.

The one part of the storyline that I don't think has never been discussed here on Suikosource is how reliant the story is on numbers.

The Obvious one is 108 stars. 108 is a very balanced number, as it can be divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 27, 36, and 54. perfect for separating little groups of characters. Am I right in saying this is a divine number in Japan? (I'm a bit ropey on this fact). In Suiko 2 fighting 108 battles before the intro gets you a colour intro.

Then there are of course 27 true runes. There are 4 stages of power to runes. 4 X 27: 108.

Of course the other numbers are in suikoden 1: 1 hero removed and alone.

Suikoden 2: 2 friends separated and forced to fight each other.

Suikoden 3 (admittedly I haven't played this here in Blighty): 3 heroes and 3 stories.

Suikoden 4 (again, haven't played it yet): The battle parties have been reduced to 4.

And of course their is a great reliance on gambling: Dice being a mainstay in all of the games: Chichorin (is that spelt right?) with its three dice. The rope game in Suiko 2 was ruled by dice as well.. Also the 'paper, scissors, rock' battle plan merely a simple gamble.

I think with this reliance of numbers, their is a strong link to chaos and order. Order can only be established completely in the games with all 108 stars. And although there are no actual characters that are chaos and order, or in fact good or evil, they fill roles briefly to show the battle of order and chaos.

And with this hypothesis, I would suggest that Suikoden 5 will focus on chaos itself. 5 is a 'bad' number for order in Suikoden, it doesn't fit into the 108 balance. In Suikoden 1 there were five generals in Barbarossa's army. 4 survived. In Suikoden 2 this number of generals had been revised to 6 for the 'good' army. The balance of good prevailing. There are 5 true elemental runes. I would suggest that they are the key to chaos.

Admittedly, some of this stuff is a bit shakey, but I do believe there is something in it.

But the question is: do you lot?

[Vextor]

108 isn't a divine number in Japan, it is in fact totally the opposite. It is the number of vices in Buddhism (which is practiced outside of Japan as well--and Suikoden is based off a Chinese story). For example, a buddhist prayer bead has 108 beads, each corresponding to a vice. A person prays while rotating the beads, and once they finish a full cycle, they are done (in some sects, that is).

The original 108 stars in the novel Shui Hu Zhuan (called Suikoden in Japanese), are incarnations of demonic overlords who have been defeated and sealed by Shang Ti the most high Daoist sage. They are released by a stupid government bureaucrat, and reincarnate as humans to right the wrong in the world and atone for their bad karma (The story was put together during times when Buddhism was transforming traditional Daoism).

Also, Konami first announced that there are 36 True Runes instead of 27. Both numbers can divide 108 though, how interesting.

[-Sam]

The little thing you said about the suikodens and their numbers having something to do with the in game story, ie - Suikoden 2, 2 main characters split apart and Suikoden 3, 3 main characters, sounds pritty ok to me but most companies dont do that kind of stuff on purpose, its probably just a coincidence really. but interesting theroie.

[Baka_no_fool]

Just wanna say that I found an interesting fact in a library last month, they were mentioning about the tradition in Jap that every new year or so the temple will hit da big bell 108 times to celebrate or to tell the people the comin of da new year... so basically what does this 108 number really means is still a mystery......for me at least...?

[Vextor]

As I said above--

108 isn't a divine number in Japan, it is in fact totally the opposite. It is the number of vices in Buddhism (which is practiced outside of Japan as well--and Suikoden is based off a Chinese story). For example, a buddhist prayer bead has 108 beads, each corresponding to a vice. A person prays while rotating the beads, and once they finish a full cycle, they are done (in some sects, that is).

So each of the 108 strikes on the bell are for each vice.

[The Bryan]

In Suiko 2 fighting 108 battles before the intro gets you a colour intro.

Really? what intro goes into color? the on where the hero and jowy get the true runes?

[Jowy Atreides]

That was just a flashback, not an intro.

The opening credits (or intro I guess) are in color if you engage in the waterfall fight with Rowd's soldiers 108 times. Go for somewhere around 28,000 potch to make sure you've got over 108 times.

[Jesai]

I am not suprised to hear that buddhism clasifies 108 vices, but i always suspected that the number itself was of much greater significance. Unfortunately my mind was drawing a blank so i did a bit of digging. Not suprisingly the number 108 is indeed a divine number in India, the birthplace of buddhism. The fact that buddhism carried this mystic number and spread it into asia doesnt come as too much of a shock. Also not suprisingly the number is used for several different things.

Anyway here was an interesting source http://www.salagram.net/108meaning.html

I was hoping to dig a bit into the qabalahs comprehension of 108, but unfortunately the system is much more intuitive and inter related, so kinda hard to glean much without really knowing the system.

It kinda reminds me of the number 13. Its all kinda lost somewhere in history, but everyone seems to know about it.

[LGM]

The number thirteen actually refers to Christ and the Apostles, and the thirteenth being Judas, but I'm not really religious, and fear for my life talking about religion on a games forum so I'll stop there.

But it does show you how Suikoden has an actual theology to it, and that one little thing in the game is not more important to another (Pesmerga over Vampires for instance), but all the pieces together solve the big picture. To win you have to play ALL of the game and collect ALL 108 stars. Which is the true reflection of cosmic balance and making everything ticket-boo. Yay!

And I always thought the answer to life, the universe and everything was 42....

[Kaka_Koshi]

About Suikoden III and the 3 heroes thing.

Isnt Thomas considered a hero? I mean he is the Tenkai Star, the one to bring everyone together...? Tir and Riou were the Tenkai stars also >.>
I know you havent played SuiIII but im jsut saying >.>

So that would mean there are 4 heroes in Suikoden III.

I consider Thomas a hero, but some people dont even though he is the Tenkai Star ; ;

[Chaos_Zero]

Thomas cannot be really classified a a Hero. He played a major role by bringing everyone together, but he himself didn't fit the role as hero, the way the 3 main characters did.

[Windspun_Monkey]

I was thinking that maybe their really are 36 true runes. Maybe they're just making everyone think there are 27 and eventually some 'hidden' true runes will emerge later in the series. Maybe konami knew this and the messed up and accidently said 36 and revised their statement because they didn't want people to learn the secret

[Fliktor]

What makes you think there are 36 True Runes in the first place? Did I miss something?

[LGM]

Konami were toying with the idea to have 36 runes in the first place, but I'd guess its a little too big of a number to handle.

I mean, you have soul eater and gate room and whatever, but by the time you got into the thirties you'd probably be using 'banana rune', and 'rune of a mild ticking off'.

Or perhaps its just my imagination is limited.

[Fliktor]

Sorry, have you got a source to link for this, I've never read about this before?