How could Luca fight wounded against 18 characters?

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
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RageRune
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Post by RageRune »

Hey he does have black eyes in the corner. And here I was thinking he was a demon :lol: .
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Post by Jowy Atreides »

OK, I understand my mistake.
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Red Killey
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Post by Red Killey »

It's just common sense that training makes people stronger. While I acknowledge that Luca's hate was the one that pushed him to train harder and harder, in the end it's still the training that matters. His power was gained from the hard training (which was fueled with the hate), but still not from the hate itself.
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Post by Luna5358 »

hmm, strong armor perhaps? a normal man could never defend himself against the many people and have a couple arrows stickin out, but then again no normal man could have done the horendous acts that Luca did so im not quite sure how he did it, perhaps as gamers we were supposed to think of Luca as the ultimate boss and therefore it would take a lot to kill him.
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Black Fang
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Post by Black Fang »

Wow! I can't believe all of you are agreeing that this is pure anger and determination. There is absolutelly no way in hell that can be true. If you recall at the very begenning of Suikoden II when you first recruit Tsai, he does say that Luca isn't human.
Although it's natural to think the Beast Rune game Luca his power (I mean, that's sort of the theme of the Beast Rune), Murayama has stated that Luca's strength comes from himself only.
Ok, that was going to be my main argument, but apparentlly its plain wrong, however, thinking a human can possibly be that strong is insane. Yes sheer determination and anger can drive you to push yourself to your limits as can years of training, but noone was a match for this guy, not to mention that you simply cannot maintain that level of intensity as your body would give up. Surely there would have been people who train harder than Luca in the Suiko world, and its not as if it was genetic (which it would have to be if he was naturaly super strong) because his dad is a whimp that ran away at first sight of a bunch of common ruffians.

When someone is shot with an bullet, or an arrow in Luca's case, they can live through it as long as no vital organs are injured. That may explain why he didn't die straight away, but usualy within a minitue of serrious blood loss there is no way a human being could sustain any power to stand on his own two feet, let alone fight three battles and then a one-on-one duel. And yes he would have lost a LOT of blood being that he was hit whit who knows how many arrows.

So in short, no he can't possibly be a pure human and if he isn't affected by the Beast Rune than he must have been affected by some other unnatural power.
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Fliktor
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Post by Fliktor »

He also has heavy armor on that would take most of the blow from the arrows. Likely they never punctured any vital organs, and he was loosing blood. But by that time his adrenaline was already pumping just as heavy, so he probably wouldn't have even noticed.

And yes, he is completely 100% human. Whether you choose to believe it is pretty irelevant, it's official that he had no magical (that includes rune) aid to his strength or battles. Also his only item aid we are aware of is the amulet from Harmonia allowing him to perform the fire/sword attack.

Hanging around the Beast Rune all the time would not increase his strength, otherwise all the former Kings of Highland would have been just as powerful.

Again, when people comment on people's demonic nature, it doesn't necessarily mean they're demons. Like when Flik (or Viktor) say he was brought up by wolves on the taste of blood (or something very close, someone know the quote?), doesn't literally mean he was. It's a saying.

Sorry, he was completely human, and is/was the most powerful human being in existence.
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Post by Black Fang »

Fair enough, I see the point you're coming from and suppose it is only a game.
He also has heavy armor on that would take most of the blow from the arrows. Likely they never punctured any vital organs, and he was loosing blood. But by that time his adrenaline was already pumping just as heavy, so he probably wouldn't have even noticed.
This part though would only make him die faster though. When adrenaline pushes in, your hart starts pumping blood several times faster than it does originaly, and having a bunch of holes in him he would lose blood at an abnormal rate, and he would weaken regardless of him noticing anything or not.
Also his only item aid we are aware of is the amulet from Harmonia allowing him to perform the fire/sword attack.
Is it possible he is wearing something else that we are unaware of? Or that maybe this amulet amplifies his power.
Hanging around the Beast Rune all the time would not increase his strength, otherwise all the former Kings of Highland would have been just as powerful.
Yes I agree with you a 100% here, and I never stated this but I thought either the beast rune intervened or he acquired the strentght via some other form of magic.
Again, when people comment on people's demonic nature, it doesn't necessarily mean they're demons. Like when Flik (or Viktor) say he was brought up by wolves on the taste of blood (or something very close, someone know the quote?), doesn't literally mean he was. It's a saying.
You're on the money here though. Good call. Still though, if he is only a human, than Konami has exaggerated his strength beyond belief.

Another thing though that comes to mind is that Agres himself would have to be bloody strong. Either his dad or his mom, but I doubt the latter holds true, have to be extremelly strong in this case for him to turn out to be such a beast. Genetically he picks up from both his parents and no other source, yet he is greatlly supperior in strength, and I'm not just talking about him being younger and training harder. This is in his blood. I just don't get why they would state that his power DIDN'T come from the beast rune.....that could easily ended a lot of discussions. Now we know Konami said that all this strength comes naturally, yet the pieces of the puzzle just don't fit. Wot'cha think?
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Post by Black Fang »

Something just came to my attention so I change my stance to my original claim of Luca NOT having that strength through pure training.

If that is true, regardin all that has been said so far, then tell me this, how the hell does he TELEPORT and mass attack your entire army, when shu springs a trap for him during Luca's attack on your HQ?

So far the only people that can possibly teleport are those with TRUE runes. We know of Leknaat, Luc, Neclord, Sasarai and Yuber, all bearers of true runes.

If Luca's Teleportation power, not to forget that MASSIVE attack he did againe the WHOLE army, isn't his own then his strength would spring from the same source. I think whoever stated that he doesn't draw strength from the Beast Rune just plain and simply stuffed up and now its too late to take it back.

Any justifications on the other side of the argument?
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Fliktor
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Post by Fliktor »

Simple. He didn't teleport. As there is no battle animation on Suikoden II for a quick escape, it would have really cheapend his escape if you saw him running away. Don't confuse gameplay techniques with story techniques.
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Also his only item aid we are aware of is the amulet from Harmonia allowing him to perform the fire/sword attack.


Is it possible he is wearing something else that we are unaware of? Or that maybe this amulet amplifies his power.
Unless Konami say so, then the only item he used was the amulet from Harmonia.

The reason Konami didn't say his strength came from the Beast Rune is because...it didn't. Luca was insane. Hellbent on destruction of the City-States, and after that, probably anywhere else that opposed him. If he was as strong by any other means, he wouldn't have been more than a regular human boss you encounter. You've said it yourself that you can't believe he's human - but the fact is, that he is human. That is what's so impressive about his power, it's all very much natural and self-induced.
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Post by Black Fang »

Sorry Fliktor, I know that this is your position on this and you are stating all your points but I do not see valid justifications for any of them.
The reason Konami didn't say his strength came from the Beast Rune is because...it didn't.
What is your justification here? Its possible that one Konami representative might have stuffed up or maybe they overlooked that specific part of the story. How can you EXPLAIN that his strength doesn't come from the Beast Rune when everything we discussed so far seems to be pointing in that direction. Just a few valid counter-examples if you can.
Luca was insane. Hellbent on destruction of the City-States, and after that, probably anywhere else that opposed him. If he was as strong by any other means, he wouldn't have been more than a regular human boss you encounter.
I agree with this (dunno about the anyone else that opposed him as he really had a vendetta against city-state) but then again, this is completelly irrelevant to your argument.
You've said it yourself that you can't believe he's human - but the fact is, that he is human.
Once again, good statement, no justification whatsoever!
That is what's so impressive about his power, it's all very much natural and self-induced.
His power was impressive regardless of its nature, natural or otherwise. He was a beast when it came to brute force and noone can deny that. Your statement doesn't show me in the slightest that the Beast Rune isn't the source of his power. I stand by my original statement as I believe I've justified every statement you threw my way, and more and they seem to fit. This doesn't mean that I'm not openminded. Prove me wrong if you can but show me some logical reasoning.
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Red Killey
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Post by Red Killey »

I don't think it needs justification other than Konami said so. People need to realize that Suikoden games and characters are created by Konami, so Konami decided whatever they want and how they want it to be. So let's say we know for sure that Lorelai is a female, but if Konami decided that Lorelai is a male, then she's a male, no matter how it doesn't make sense.

But if you insisted on justification, I'll try to come up with something that might be satisfying enough for you.

1. Luca's power not from Beast Rune. I think for one it's fairly obvious that the Beast Rune is attached to L'Renouille, not to Luca himself. So it's easy enough to say that Beast Rune doesn't affect Luca's power at all. Then second of all, I think it was Konami's intention to create Luca as the uber-strong character. If they put Beast Rune helping Luca's power, then Luca wouldn't really be *that* strong anymore because the Beast Rune would be responsible for his power.

2. Luca is human. What more justification do you need? Agares and Sara Blight are humans, and since Luca was their son, so he is a human for sure. Nothing to argue at all here. Not one single bit.

Hope that it makes sense for you.
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Post by Black Fang »

No I completelly understand that and respect the viewpoint, and I realise it is just a game and a made up story, but it isn't a comedic game, it is dramatised and serrious. We all know when something becomes big fans can question every aspect that the creators themselves probably weren't aware of (Star Wars would make the perfect example here). Thing is yea Konami said so, but why....was it coz they really didn't think about it in the first place and just stuffed up which would be a satisfying answer as making mistakes is a natural thing that happens, or did they just notice that and defend it by a simple argument that his power doesn't come from the Beast Rune without any justification. If Konami truly has a reason for doing it that way I believe someone will know the true reason.
Luca's power not from Beast Rune. I think for one it's fairly obvious that the Beast Rune is attached to L'Renouille, not to Luca himself. So it's easy enough to say that Beast Rune doesn't affect Luca's power at all.
Very true, however it isn't attached to Luca but maybe it feeds him power. Without moving from L'Renouille, Luca was able to summon the Beast Rune to perform that sacrifice in Muse. Either the rune itself has enormous range, or Luca somehow summoned it there.
Then second of all, I think it was Konami's intention to create Luca as the uber-strong character. If they put Beast Rune helping Luca's power, then Luca wouldn't really be *that* strong anymore because the Beast Rune would be responsible for his power.
What are you talking about!?! Luca would still be Luca, and he would still be that strong no matter what the official word was. You say whatever Konami says holds. Well at this point they can say easily say both. They can even go back on their word by your standard, but that still doesn't fit into the story UNLESS they have an explenation. As for my previous statement I didn't say Luca had the rune attached to him, I said it gave him power when he came into contact with it, because the Beast Rune saw something in Luca and used him to its advantage.
Luca is human. What more justification do you need? Agares and Sara Blight are humans, and since Luca was their son, so he is a human for sure. Nothing to argue at all here. Not one single bit.
Exatlly! I never said he wasn't human or a deamon or something. All I'm saying is that the Beast Rune OR some other source of power gave him inhuman strength, because that is what he posseses. Get my point?
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Post by Vextor »

Fliktor wrote:Also his only item aid we are aware of is the amulet from Harmonia allowing him to perform the fire/sword attack.
Although Murayama has stated that Luca used "an item," I have never heard of an "amulet from Harmonia. Can you possibly elaborate on this, or tell me where you got this info?
someone wrote:Very true, however it isn't attached to Luca but maybe it feeds him power. Without moving from L'Renouille, Luca was able to summon the Beast Rune to perform that sacrifice in Muse. Either the rune itself has enormous range, or Luca somehow summoned it there.
This is because Luca actually brought the Beast Rune to Muse. This is mentioned in Genso Suiko Gaiden Vol. 1.

The Beast Rune requires no "summoning." Just drop some blood on the rune and voila, beasts appear. That's how Leon was able to waken the Silver Wolf.
somebody wrote: Exatlly! I never said he wasn't human or a deamon or something. All I'm saying is that the Beast Rune OR some other source of power gave him inhuman strength, because that is what he posseses. Get my point?
Murayama states in an interview within the Suikoden 108 character guide, which was published in the year 2000. In it, he was asked the question whether Luca's power comes from some inhuman source. Mrayama answered that Luca's power comes purely from himself, and is not based on any rune (including the Beast Rune) or force. He is then asked about Luca's fire attack, and says that Luca uses an "item" to ignite his sword.

When the creator of the series is saying that Luca's power is not based on powers beyond his own--not based on the Beast Rune or some other source of power--there really can not be any argument that says otherwise. Because Suikoden is a game that takes place in a world created pretty much by Murayama himself, what he says is fact.
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Post by Black Fang »

This is because Luca actually brought the Beast Rune to Muse. This is mentioned in Genso Suiko Gaiden Vol. 1.

The Beast Rune requires no "summoning." Just drop some blood on the rune and voila, beasts appear. That's how Leon was able to waken the Silver Wolf.
Good point!
When the creator of the series is saying that Luca's power is not based on powers beyond his own--not based on the Beast Rune or some other source of power--there really can not be any argument that says otherwise. Because Suikoden is a game that takes place in a world created pretty much by Murayama himself, what he says is fact.
Fair enough. So basically Luca isn't modeled after a real life human but rather a fantasy human that has that capability. All I wanted to know! Thought Suikoden was related to the real world in that specific sense but I suppose its ok for it to be a fantasy situation. Thanks for justifying it SARS![/code]
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Red Killey
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Post by Red Killey »

Black Fang wrote:What are you talking about!?! Luca would still be Luca, and he would still be that strong no matter what the official word was. You say whatever Konami says holds. Well at this point they can say easily say both. They can even go back on their word by your standard, but that still doesn't fit into the story UNLESS they have an explenation. As for my previous statement I didn't say Luca had the rune attached to him, I said it gave him power when he came into contact with it, because the Beast Rune saw something in Luca and used him to its advantage.
What I meant is that Konami purposely not put Beast Rune as the source of Luca's power so that Luca could be seen as uber-strong character on his own. Think about it this way, if Luca relied on Beast Rune's power to be strong, then he, himself, is NOT uber-strong anymore. So there is a difference between the two. To me, that's the justification on why Luca's power didn't come from the Beast Rune.
Exatlly! I never said he wasn't human or a deamon or something. All I'm saying is that the Beast Rune OR some other source of power gave him inhuman strength, because that is what he posseses. Get my point?
Well on your post before mine, you commented that Luca being a human is a good thing but without justification. So there it is, I posted the justification on why he's a human, because his parents are humans.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just giving justification on things that you say as good but have no justification.
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