How could Luca fight wounded against 18 characters?

Celsis · Post by **Celsis** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:02 pm

Hope you guys just all remember that this is a game =p where anything goes. You can have a guy be shot, stabbed, skewered, blown up with magic, shot with arrows etc, and even have it repeat or done multiple times and still have that character live. While in one certain key moment, one blow can end a person. If a character had as much hp when you recruit him as when you fight them before, it would be way too easy of a battle with 6 party members, so of course they tweak it a bit to make it more challenging, just as they would like to tweak the battle with Luca to show that he is definitely a dangerous man and very powerful. They could have kept it just 6 people and still made it equally as hard, but by making it 18, it just shows an extra emphasis on his power, even if it doesn't make realistic sense, and by the fact that it was only his power, and not enhanced by anything else, everything is done for the feel of its effect, not it's logic. =p

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:32 pm

Aite, I think SARS cleared it up the best but I understend what you're saying Killey. Celsis's comments back it up too and the point I was arguing is that IF Suikoden was a serrious game and took aspects from real life as they are, then that would have been a stuff up, but it seems that they only exaggerated his power to prove a point. Guess that tells us why he could take on 18 guys while still wounded.

Edit: O and Red, just to let you know, argue away heh. It's ok to argue, especially with me, don't worry I don't take it personally. I just wanted to see your points on this and to justify the situation logically. Isn't that what these forums are for?

Post by **Vextor** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:48 am

Actually, Luca Blight was indeed modeled after a person in history. Chang Yu is his name, and he was a general who fought against Liu Pang (Liu Bei's ancestor) back around the year 200 b.c.e. His history is written down in an old history book called the "Ci Zhi" which chronicles a wide range of Chinese History.

In it, Chang Yu is described as being the most powerful warrior and most skillful general in history. In fact, if what he actually did is true, he would indeed be the most poerful. He fought against 10 of Liu Pang's best generals in duels one after the other and defeated them all, and when faced with Liu Pang's army of 560,000, he defeated them flatly with only 20,000 soldiers.

He never lost a battle until the time he died, and only after Liu Pang's strategists threw columns and columns of soliders at him. Towards the end he only had 27 men with him, but hey defeated a regiment of 500 soldiers while losing only two men.

After that, Chang Yu killed himself rather than let being killed by an enemy's sword.

Who knows if that is true, but it certainly sounds like Luca Blight.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:23 pm

He fought against 10 of Liu Pang's best generals in duels one after the other and defeated them all, and when faced with Liu Pang's army of 560,000, he defeated them flatly with only 20,000 soldiers.

Actually this guy is more like Kiba or Genkaku. Luca Blight obliterated the City State that is true, and he did take over Muse with amazing tactics, but for the most part he was the one with FAR superrior numbers on his side. Even with a fraction of his total might he more than douibled Riou's army. The fact that he fought 10 generals in duels one after another shows nothing of Luca......thats more like Tir. Luca took out mostly the weak. Everyone ran away from him. The only stronger oponent I can think of that he took on would have been those rufians when he was young, but even then, they were only common bandits.

He never lost a battle until the time he died, and only after Liu Pang's strategists threw columns and columns of soliders at him. Towards the end he only had 27 men with him, but hey defeated a regiment of 500 soldiers while losing only two men.

Again Fort Retto? This is Kiba to a hair. Thing is Luca lost virtually ALL his men on that raid, well at least all that we saw compared to none on Riou's side.

Gotta say, honourable way to die, and I wouldn't mind reading it up. Is there a source on the internet you found or do I have to go to the library?

RiceBowl52 · Post by **RiceBowl52** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:33 pm

Hey Sars since we are talking about ancient Chinese generals now, was Lu Bu recorded as a real person in history or just a legend?

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:36 pm

Well Liu Bei was so I'd take it that his ancestors were too.

Red Killey · Post by **Red Killey** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:44 pm

Black Fang, I think you misunderstood the point. The point of Luca-ChangYu is that Luca was modelled to be an uber-strong character like Chang Yu and not exactly for the things that they did. Chang Yu is obviously the strongest person in the legend, and Luca is definitely the strongest human in Suikoden World (at least at that time).

And to compare Kiba with Chang Yu is definitely not accurate either because Kiba is known for his defensive tactic whereas Chang Yu seems to be more active on offense as well. No mean to disrespect Kiba, but defending a fort with fewer soldiers is definitely easier than attacking with fewer soldiers.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:04 pm

I see. Well from SARS's post I saw that Chang Yu was a great general. I'll have to read up more on his legend. In SARS's post it basically shows him beating other generals with a smaller force, that is why I compared him to Kiba and Genkaku. I also never saw that Chang Yu was "active", as you say, anywhere in SARS's post so thats where I drew the Kiba conclusion too. I really cannot argue here as I know nothing of his legend but I will check it out.

and Luca is definitely the strongest human in Suikoden World (at least at that time).

You reckon there is actually a stronger force than Luca in the Suikoden universe??? Only ones I can think of would be the Sindar and possibly Hikusaak.

Red Killey · Post by **Red Killey** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:36 pm

Well Chang Yu was said to never lost a battle. It's unlikely that he always on the defense side, but it's very likely that he always had the smaller number of soldiers. But then again, I don't know for sure.

As for whether there is someone stronger than Luca or not, well it's up in the air. I have no direct answer, but for all we know, there might be one in future Suikoden games. Or if we want simple answers, True Rune bearers might be stronger than Luca.

Celsis · Post by **Celsis** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:34 pm

usually though when they have battles like that, it's mostly all tactics, so even though Chang Yu was a powerful general, it was because he had very good tactics, and other advantages to help him win with such small numbers, because I'm sure it is possible to win with the disadvantage of number if you have good tactics and such. But, the battle with Luca Blight was just full on beating, Luca took a ton of damage and lived anyway, so, there is a bit of difference in that =p not to mention he took 6 people on at once, not just one per round, even if Chang Yu faught and defeated 10 generals as stated, it was probably a one on one duel at a time, not 10 on one =p. So, they still exaggerated it game wise, even if Luca was based on the general. But it's all good ^_^ because it was a fun battle to plan, although sometimes frustrating, it's satisfying to finally defeat Luca like he was nothing at all.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:59 pm

Actually he fought 6 people THREE times in a row and then a guy with a true rune (and yes I'm aware its only half a rune) not to mention with all those arrows sticking outta his back!

Quick question though.

His history is written down in an old history book called the "Ci Zhi" which chronicles a wide range of Chinese History.

Is there an English version of this book???

O and on just outta curriosity, do all of you guys take longer to prepare for the Luca battle then for the Beast Rune? Always seems that way when I play.

Sephiros · Post by **Sephiros** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:48 pm

Suikoden is a video game, not historical fact. That's the only logic behind it.

Black Fang · Post by **Black Fang** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:55 pm

No Seph, I was talking about the "Ci Zhi" book that SARS stated. I was wondering if that was translated. That's a historical book and it has nothing to do with the Suikoden storyline except for maybe a few ideas that have been taken out of there. I'm pretty sure everyone on this board knows suikoden isn't based on facts too, I think the runes give that away heh.

Fliktor · Post by **Fliktor** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:35 am

About the amulet; I must have read it somewhere too quickly, and taken it on board. Maybe it was a possible suggestion someone wrote. Anyway...moving on...

And yeah, I took far longer preparing for the Luca battle than the Beast Rune. My preparation for the Beast Rune was simply walking through L'Renouille, that leveled me up enough to fight it and kill it easily.

Post by **Vextor** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:31 am

The "Ci Zhi" is probably translated into English, because it is a major historical text of Chinese history. It can probably be found as Shiji. Try a yahoo or google search, or even on amazon and perhaps you will find it. Also, I misspelled the name of the general, his name is spelled Xiang Yu in most places.

Murayama stated that the plot of Suikoden 2 is largely based on the "Xiang Yu and Liu Pang" story from the Shiji, and that Luca Blight and Jowy Atredies' character was created by taking portions from Xiang Yu. Specifically, the ruthlessly brutal side of Xiang Yu to Luca, and his more romantic, naive side to Jowy. The story paralells in a number of places as well. Xiang Yu had a huge military and political advantage over Liu Pang, but lacked the charisma necessary to attract good generals. He had one strategist who was exremely good (much like Leon), but does not follow his plans and goes on gut instincts, which leads to his downfall. Meanwhile, Liu Pang had three incredible strategists who were specialized in politics, military strategy, and logistics. As time went by, generals under Xiang Yu defected and joined Liu Pang's forces, which slowly cornered Xiang Yu. Even though Xiang Yu was losing land, he still never lost any battles he was personally involved in--his other generals were the ones losing his land. Liu Pang's strategists knew they were no match for Xiang Yu, so they deliberately avoided a direct confrontation with Xiang Yu (instead the one time when Liu Pang stupidly thought he can defeat Xiang Yu with his 560,000 troops against Xiang Yu's 20,000).

In the end, however, Xiang Yu is cornered from all sides and meets his end.

As for Lu Bu, he is also a historical character. He was a dishonest ruffian who was renown for his ability with his spear and bow, but infamous for being untrustworthy. Although he was an excellent warrior at a personal level, he was not a very good leader. He's somewhat glorified beyond his actual historical role in recent games made by Koei though.

Suikosource

How could Luca fight wounded against 18 characters?

There is no logic in video games.