Why Luca didn't killed Agares himself?

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
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Black Fang
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Post by Black Fang »

Personally I don't think Jowy's rune had anything to do with it. He took antitoxins at a regular basis to make himself somewhat immune to the poison and then drank a bit on the day he killed Agres. Konami kinda exaggerated the speed at which all this happened unless its a really strong poison and some DAYAMN good antitoxin, but if they took any longer for Agres to die from the drink we probably wouldn't get why he fell and died.

The Army are half loyal to Agres and half to Luca, and no Seed and Culgan probably wouldn't side with Agres at that point in the game because they knew that Jowy was coming into the picture and what he was doing. Jowy would most likely join Luca giving the advantages of Leon and Yuber but Sassarai would most likely join Agres as a king of the neighbouring country. Agres would also have more funds for Harmonia.

The White Wolf Army were strong but very limited in numbers, so as for intimidation I doubt it would do too much. Solon Jhee was dead by that point in the game.
What you say holds truth, yet you forgot about one of the most important characters-Han. Han Cunningham would deffinitly be on Luca's side. After all, he saved him and his mother, and then trained him to become a warrior. Han was in fact the only person that Luca respected. And he was Highlend's greatest hero (while Genkaku was still alive), so I think a lot of people would be with Han, and thus with Luca.
HAHAHA, You serrious??? Luca refers to him as old man. Luca has no respect towards noone and Han is loyal and always has been to Agres.
Luca was pretty wealthy...
Nopes, Agres is wealthy, Luca gets money from daddy.
I'm sure Dunan would take this time to bolster their forces and regroup, and become united again, then rather attack Highland.
No way in hell......they weren't ready to organise themselves when they were being attacked let alone organise for an offensive against Highland.

Luca could have killed Agres at any point in the story before Jowy came to the scene. This would mean NO JOWY, NO LEON, NO YUBER, NO LUCIA.

Sassarai would go with Agres (think about it from Harmonia's POV). Solon Jhee, Culgan and Seed are Luca's generals and the way they acted they seem loyal to him until he starts burning stuff like a madman (Solon would probably still be loyal), Rowd is a whimp so I won't even count him, thus leaving Han, Klaus and Kiba with Agres and help from Sasarai.

The REASON he didn't straight out KILL Agres is not so much because of the generals. The MAIN reasons would be the army and the people. The people would hate a tyrant and would easily start rebellions all over Harmonia, and spliting the military force as well as the supplies and then killing half of them off, even if Luca did win he'd have about a 1/3 of his original army. Not a good state to attack Jowstone in. The other reason he didn't kill Agres straight out was because he HAD NO NEED TO!!! He had all the power that he needed. Agres would have easily been fooled by the Unicorn Brigade incident and screaming out for war himself. It was only at a later stage that Jowy came up with the plan that Luca decided to "get rid of the last weight around his neck" aka Agres.

Why destroy a nation when you can control it?!?!
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Post by Vextor »

Yep, Han's loyalty was always with Agares. Thats why he never actively involved himself in the war until the very end.

Luca's need to kill Agares was purely due to his desire for revenge. He already had 100% control of the army because Agares forfeited that right after signing the peace conference (due to that being a very unpopular political action among the Highland citizens). He basically had total control of the nation, but did not have the title. He didn't need any "power" from Agares at all, but he has never forgiven Agares for abandining him and Sara when they were ambushed by Muse-hired ruffians.

Why didn't he kill Agares earlier? Luca says this himself--Agares was an extremely paranoid man who made his servants taste his food and drink before he ate anything. Luca obviously would not kill Agares in ways that would make him a murderer--that would be a valid basis for some of the generals to rebel. It was only after Jowy and Leon's arrival that Luca was able to find a way to kill Agares discreetly. That is why it took him so long. If not, Luca would have killed Agares a long time ago. He has always wanted to kill him, after all.

Luca Blight's motivations for war is almost completely rooted in his wish to avenge his mother's befoulment and subsequent death. To him, Agares is one of the perpetrators.
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Post by Black Fang »

Well yea, that was Lucas only reason to off his father. Well I'm actually convinced that Leon was the one who came up with the plan to kill Agres just so that he could kill Luca and majke Jowy king.

Funnily enough Seed and Culgan caught on to his plot in Greenhill as well as the population of Highland. If you travel to Sajah listen to the responses. One woman even says that their last two kings were killed through Jowy's treachery.....makes you think they're watching the bloody cutscenes too. Maybe Konami did this so that player could tie in different messages to the story but its still somewhat strange that the people simply KNEW that Jowy was responsible for both of the deaths. I guess palace gossip could spread about Agres, but how the hell did they find out about Luca???

Another minor thing I noticed was that when you play for the state side, you notice how arrogant and up themselves the people of Highland are. They all seem to think that they are better than the state and ready for war.
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Post by Vash_HS »

The one thing that confused me was did Jowy purposfully poison himself or did Luca poison and immunize Jowy. If it was Jowy's doing, why did he do it?

To me it made more sense the second way because Luca hated Agres not Jowy and Luca made it look like it was his plan all along.
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Post by Vextor »

Jowy wanted to be the King so he can unite Dunan, that was his goal from the start. He used Luca's hatred for Agares to accelerate his plot.
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Post by Black Fang »

To answer your question fully, Jowy poisoned himself as well as taking the daily antitoxins. The reason for doing so was to earn the trust of Luca, marry Jillia and be in line as the next king for Highland once he removed Luca, just like SARS said. It was all actually Leon's plan, but he worked towards the same goal as Jowy at that point and time.
Jowy wanted to be the King so he can unite Dunan
Not really......from what he saw, he realised Dunan can't be united and basically wanted to TAKE IT OVER, not unite, and make it a part of Highland territory, so basically yea he wanted one country but his method was by brute force rather than alliances.
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Post by Vextor »

That's what I mean, because Highland is also a part of Dunan. The city states of Jowston and Highland both comprise the Dunan region.
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Post by Black Fang »

Aite, I see. Btw on another post you said something about Highland being a part of Harmonia. I thought Highland rebelled just like the Scarlet Moon Empire.....well the empire before Scarlet Moon.
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Post by Deloseth »

Highland never rebelled (unless we count the Higheast Rebellion), the land was granted to Maroux Blight after he put down a rebellion in Harmonia.
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Post by Black Fang »

I see. The part of then Harmonia that Maroux Blight put down wouldn't happend to have been the new Highland would it???
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Post by Vextor »

We don't know where exactly the civil war went on. It could have well been the same area that Maroux Blight was granted, but there's no information.
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Post by Black Fang »

Ah, ok. Well I saw something about a rebellion and Maroux Blight creating Highland so I either assumed or the source cited invalid information, but I thought he actually acquired Highland by military force and/or tactics. Anyways I knew he was a hero of sorts (unlike the future generations). So Highland itself was actually a part of Harmonia at that time, or was it still Dunan? Another thing that springs to mind is, that if Highland was under Harmonian rule as well as the Scarlet Moon Empire, how come the rest of the Dunan region in between was independant? There is nothing in the history that says that they rebelled agains Harmonia. You'd think Harmoina would take Dunan before they moved on to Scarlet Moon.
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Post by Vextor »

Yeah, the fact that history doesn't cite Dunan being under Harmonian rule is a mystery. However, Toran is a lot easier to reach from Harmonia than Dunan if you take the sea-route. Thus, Harmonia may not have been interested in the Dunan area, and only ventured as far as the area known as Highland.

As far as Dunan's history goes, we only know that the Dunan Monarchy started out of nowhere.
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Post by Black Fang »

Well with Dunan, weren't the nations kinda formed by themselves from probably tiny villages that later formed into South Window, Two-River, Muse, Tinto and Greenhill? We know that Rockaxe was established way later by the city state but as for the rest....they seem to have evolved from monkeys or something. Makes you think that Harmonia isn't as power hungry as most people say. Via the sea route, it seems that Dunan is still closer as both Dunan and Toran have a mountain range on the east side which would prevent easy access. Dunan would be the logical choice but bleh.....it is after all Harmonia heh.
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Post by Vextor »

What do you mean, you can't get to Dunan proper by sea. In Suikoden 2, Sheena says that it took him two weeks by ship to get from Gregminster to L'renouille, while it took Viktor and Flik 6 months to do that by land. Thus, traveling by ship is a lot faster than traveling by land in Suikoden.

As far as the formationof Dunan, there simply is no information on how it evolved into a monarchy. That means, there's no information on whether a group of villages or twons ggradually grew into a monarchy.
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