Why Luca didn't killed Agares himself?

Maldonado · Post by **Maldonado** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:44 am

Luca always hated his father. And that's one of the most important aspects of Suikoden 2 story. But why couldn't he kill Agares himself? Why did he have to wait for Jowy to poison him? He could've just stabb Agares with his sword. He already had a lot of men on his side, so he'd have no problems in keeping the throne. Maybe he tought Agares was a better fighter than him? But if that's the reason, it doesen't make sense. Agares was a lot older then Luca. Luca could've killed him easilly. Or could he...?

Fliktor · Post by **Fliktor** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:57 am

He already had a lot of men on his side, so he'd have no problems in keeping the throne

I'd tend to disagree there. Alot of soldiers and generals, like Klaus and Kiba, were followers of Agares, the King, not of Luca. If Agares was murdered by Luca, it would quickly be found out, and he would loose alot of followers and his cause would die away. The wedding ceremony was the only place he could get him alone so Jowy could poison him. That way nobody could prove it was Luca.

Hxc Flavor · Post by **Hxc Flavor** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:20 pm

It was Jowy who thought of killing Agares, wasn't it? I don't know if Luca thought about trying it before Jowy came along. The reason he poisoned him instead of just stabbing him or something was even said by Luca. It was impossible to get past his guards and servants. Agares had people test his food for him befor he ate it, just to make sure it wasn't poisoned. The only reason he didnt have the wine tested before he sipped it was because it was a special kind of ceremony. And as Fliktor said, stabbing would make people think the King was murdered, but poison will make the people of Highland think he just died of natural causes.

Shirofan · Post by **Shirofan** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:51 pm

Luca could have killed his father and seized the throne by force at any point.

But that action would have split the military down the middle and many would fight to depose Luca for his dishonourable actions; probably aiming to install Jillia on the thone.

It is probable that Luca would have won this civil war, but not without the loss of troops and supplies, that would have taken time to build up reserves to aim for an assault on the City States; not to mention the possibility that the City States may have taken the opportunity of striking at Highland when it was vunerable.

The real power in Highland comes from the one that controls the military, a position Luca was placed in before the events of the game started.
The throne was a bonus to Luca, to be claimed when Agares had outlived his usefulness; this came following the capture of Kiba, the king's most loyal military figure.

And as for the ceremony, Luca tasted the wine before Jowy added his blood as a part of the ceremony, so Agares believed the wine was free to drink.

The most fantastical thing in the whole scenario is the toxin used. It must have taken input from the Black Sword Rune to keep Jowy alive to be able to gain tolerance to such a deadly poison and to build up such a concentration in his blood that a few drops could kill in such a short time.

Ced The Lad · Post by **Ced The Lad** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:03 pm

In the NTSC version, it said that he drank antitoxin daily and then poisoned his own blood. Does that mean that overdosage contaminated his blood while the Black Sword Rune kept him alive? Or did he drink poison after constant use of antitoxin?

It's an interesting plot when you think about it.

Maldonado · Post by **Maldonado** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:23 pm

Hey, you know what...I agree with you on this one, Shirofan. But don't underestimate Luca's White Wolves. If he somehow killed Agares and siezed the throne, it's quite possible that a lot of people would be intimidated by bloodthirsty fanatical White Wolves. So intimidated they wouldn't even consider starting a civil war. And not to mention the fact that Luca already possesed loyalty of most of the Highland soldiers.
But if the people wouldn't be intimidated by White Wolves...then I guess it would all happen just the way you said it.

Hint: Remember the Roman Empire and the famous Praetorians? Well, I think that White Wolves are exacly that- Luca's Praetorians. His personal army of fanatical followers.

Blitzkrieg · Post by **Blitzkrieg** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:51 pm

I don't know about Solon...but you saw what Seed and Culgan said. They love the country, but dislike the Prince. If Luca killed the King...almost all of Luca's generals would have united a force to take Highland by force and kill Luca. Rowd would become a general under Luca most likely...but that wouldn't be enough. Seed, Culgan, Kiba and Klaus and maybe even Solon would have conquered him. I'd say...80% of the army was loyal to Agares and not Luca. Luca might get backing from Harmonia...who knows about there loyalty...Luca is royal blood, so he could get backing. He might have even hired Yuber...Ok, now i'm 50/50 on this. Luca, Rowd, Sasarai and Yuber vs Seed, Culgan, Klaus, Kiba and maybe Solon. Kiba's side has most of the Highland Royal Army, but Luca's got his own army (what were they called again...? White Wolf Army or something?) and a Holy Harmonian battalion.

koriand'r · Post by **koriand'r** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:32 pm

I thought the black sword rune was used to contain the beast rune not Jowy's health? As the power Jowy was using was killing him in the long run. Also Luca does Jowy kept dosing himself with antitoxin to counter. I don't think the rune had anything to do with it as I'm sure rune bearers can die of natural causes and toxin is quite a natural cause of death.

Donâ€™t forget Yuber was on Leonâ€™s side as leon summoned him and if a civil war did take place than Leon would make sure that Yuber aided him, Jowy, culgun, seed, kiba and klaus so I think Luca would had lost the civil war if it happened.

Maldonado · Post by **Maldonado** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:20 am

What you say holds truth, yet you forgot about one of the most important characters-Han. Han Cunningham would deffinitly be on Luca's side. After all, he saved him and his mother, and then trained him to become a warrior. Han was in fact the only person that Luca respected. And he was Highlend's greatest hero (while Genkaku was still alive), so I think a lot of people would be with Han, and thus with Luca. And let's not underestimate White Wolves Army. They are fewer in numbers, but they include the best fighters in Highland. So if the war broke out, I'd say that Luca's chances of winning the war would be 50/50.

Red Killey · Post by **Red Killey** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:36 am

To be honest, I'm not sure how loyal Han was to Luca. When he saved Luca and his mother, it could possibly be by Agares' order to do so. The questionable loyalty ot Luca is also supported by the fact that Han never involved himself during the Dunan Unification War while Luca was still alive. While it's true that his main duty is to protect L'Renouille, Han could've at least replaced Kiba's unit instead of leaving that to Rowd.

But even if Han was loyal to Luca, that would make Luca-Rowd-Han-Sasarai vs Jowy-Lucia-Seed-Culgan-Leon-Yuber-Kiba-Klaus. Not sure which side Solon would be, but White Wolves or no White Wolves, I think Luca would still be at a big disadvantage due to having no strategist on his side.

Maldonado · Post by **Maldonado** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:27 pm

Well, that's true, without a good strategist on his side it would be hard to win. As for Han, his purpose was to defend L'Renouille and he was never involved in Luca's plans of conquest. But if the war broke out, I still think he'd be on Luca's side. As you probably remember, Agares fled when Luca and his mother were captured, while Han was the one that came to rescue them. So I think it wasn't by king's order, I think Han went to save them simply because he loved his queen and her son, as well as his king, so he did what he felt was right. He also took care of luca afterwards probably because the queen wanted it. So yeah, I think he'd back up Luca probably because he'd think that's what the queen would want him to do.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:34 pm

No offense meant Maldonado, but I see 3 or 4 "I thinks" in your most recent post. Han might've joined Luca or the rebellion, but since it's only an opinion, it really can't be said either way.

Maldonado · Post by **Maldonado** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:48 pm

Hehe, you're right, I really need to stop saying "I think" so much

But hey, the war never actually broke out so all the things we discussed were "what would happen if..." so they have nothing to do with the real story of Suikoden 2 anyway.

Well, like I said, my opinion is that he'd have about 50% of a chance to win the war and I hold onto that

Blitzkrieg · Post by **Blitzkrieg** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:35 pm

Luca was pretty wealthy...so now there's a rebellion going on in his own Kingdom...that turn into a full fledge war...He might have hired more people from Harmonia. Plus the fact that Luc wouldn't really be invloved with this, and that leaves Sasarai with his True Earth Rune. I'm sure Dunan would take this time to bolster their forces and regroup, and become united again, then rather attack Highland. That wouldn't be a good move.

Futagi · Post by **Futagi** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:22 pm

To respond to the whole "Why didn't Jowy die of poisoning?" thing. I remember watching the Princess bride not too long ago. One of the main characters, Wesley, told his lover how he had spent the last few years immuning himself to one of the world's most deadly poisons. Simply put, Jowy would only have to drink a small amount of poison (not enough to kill him) each day and slowly up the dosage till he could take it by the wine glassful.
Though, in the NTSC version, it did say he drank antitoxin regularly. Perhaps with so much of it in his bloodstream, his body naturally fought off the poison. Kind of like building one's immune system.