Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!??

Detailed hypotheses for, and analysis of, the events transpiring during the Suikoden games
JanusThePaladin
Posts: 710
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:02 am
Location: Under your bed, planning your intricate death...
Contact:

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!??

Postby JanusThePaladin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:05 pm

Thats like saying that saimese twins connected at the hip are the same person, not 2 different people.

And back to the Sword and Shield Runes. Like Raww said, the Runes are intended to be complete opposites and constantly at war with one another, so the idea that they could combine their powers is absurd.

As for the question on why Earth and Fire can combine, or Wind and Water, you may notice that opposites are unable to combine, Fire CANNOT combine with Water. This has to do with the classical view on the 5 elements, and the prevalent theory that Earth compliments Fire, and that Water and Wind are akin. Atleast that is my understanding, someone please correct me if i am wrong.

Antimatzist
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:48 am
Location: Germany, yeah baby
Contact:

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!??

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:30 pm

And back to the Sword and Shield Runes. Like Raww said, the Runes are intended to be complete opposites and constantly at war with one another, so the idea that they could combine their powers is absurd.

Hm basically, yes. But in the best ending of Suikoden II iirc the struggle between the two runes/aspects of the true Rune of Beginning ends. I don't really remember if Jowy and Riou lose their two Runes or what happens... but basically a Unite coold be possible afterwards (if there were any battles, that is to say)

snakebite105
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!??

Postby snakebite105 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:23 pm

Best excuse onto why they don't unite.

Its because they are the same rune. Fire and Fire. Water and Water they don't combine do they?

Check and mate on that one. You could argue that they have different powers sure but they are different aspects of the same rune.

Like of Flowing and water are from the true water rune they still don't combine. its slightly different but the idea is still there.
I'm a fan but I'm also a critic. Without preasure to improve stagnation is the future. Do not accept lackluster because of your enjoyment of the overall picture. Criticism is needed for improvement to be made.

User avatar
EternalOnslaught
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:12 pm
Location: . . .

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!??

Postby EternalOnslaught » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:27 pm

snakebite105 wrote:Best excuse onto why they don't unite.

Its because they are the same rune. Fire and Fire. Water and Water they don't combine do they?

Check and mate on that one. You could argue that they have different powers sure but they are different aspects of the same rune.

Like of Flowing and water are from the true water rune they still don't combine. its slightly different but the idea is still there.


Of course they don't have a unite attack. The Bright Shield and Black Sword runes are different from the Dawn and Twilight/Dusk runes, which I am assuming is the reason this topic was even made. In essence they are the same rune, it seems like a test and the one who survives between the Bright Shield and the Black Sword will gain the Rune of Beginning.
Sandalphon - Senso Suikoden

KFCrispy
Global Admin
Posts: 5975
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!??

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:06 pm

the "combined attack" is shown in the complete ending of Suikoden II - the Rune of Beginning appears as a whole rune and heals Jowy from the brink of death.

Roupe
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:10 am

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!??

Postby Roupe » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:58 am

As I recall, The Creation story is that the runes was only one rune first -then 2, then more, so runes are fragments of other higher runes (that has split). birthed fragmented runes are often opposites.

And that runes can combine , with its split pieces. or assist each other.

To have the polar opposites combine (fire with water), you seem to need the pieces of that series. All other elements needed, to convince water & fire into combining (or assist each other).

User avatar
Jam-Jul Lison
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:50 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby Jam-Jul Lison » Tue May 11, 2010 3:58 pm

I don't think the black sword rune and bright shield rune having a unite attack is really strange. At least it wouldn't be after the events of Suikoden 2. The runes started as one rune. The Rune of the Beginning. When you get the canon ending of Suikoden 2, we see the 2 runes temporarily merge together to form the ruin of beginning to heal Jowy. Also in one of the non perfect endings we see Jowy die and the rune of beginning forms together and Riou becomes it's bearer.

Both of these endings support that the 2 halves of the rune can be united again. I think the whole forcing the bearers to fight each other is a test of the runes themselves. The bearers are chosen. The test is to see if they can break the curse or kill each other. If they can break the curse and the 2 bearers can end the cycle of fighting, the true power of the rune of the beginning will be awakened and grant the bearers would be able to access that power when in close proximity to each other. Also I think this would grant both the bearers the usual immortality (not aging after they reach a certain age). Considering both halves of the gate rune give Leknaat and Windy this, it seems logical that once the power of the rune of the beginning is awakened, that the bearers of the Bright Shield Rune and Black Sword Rune would also be given immortality as well. I believe however if one or both of them were to be killed, the cycle would begin again and the new bearers wouldn't be able to access the full power of the rune of the beginning. We have seen other runes with similar natures. The Rune of Punishment for example has 2 phases. It starts out consuming the lives of it's bearers. But as we saw Lazlo managed to overcome the curse of the rune. I think the curse is the rune's way of trying to find a bearer it belongs with. Not only is Lazlo strong enough to be able to withstand using the rune's life draining power, he proves to the rune that he has no desire for power and only wishes to use it to help others. I think once Lazlo proved himself to the rune, it saw him a worthy bearer and decided to no longer drain the life out of him. Considering the nature of the true runes and how they are considered sentient beings, it is very possible other true runes could behave in similar ways.

So if we see Jowy and Riou in a future game. There is no reason they can't have a rune unite attack. Though I think the odds of seeing them in a future game as playable characters is pretty slim.

suiko2fan2
Guide Writer
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:15 pm

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby suiko2fan2 » Thu May 27, 2010 10:51 am

Raww Le Klueze wrote:Yeah, two runes that are designed to FORCE THE USERS TO FIGHT EACH OTHER are going to have a combination attack, the very opposite of their intent. *facepalm*


Their ultimate "intent" is to judge war, and perhaps if possible to become one. Their mechanisms for achieving both those objectives is combat. So, War, as you implied is not its intent, judging war however is, a much higher echelon on the list; judgment is their design and war is their method, or perhaps weapon would be a more suitable choice of word, achieving that end.

Moreover, if and when, the 2 runes ever do become one someday, a least in the form of the ROB, the rune should have new magic attacks, perhaps similar in scope to its' predecessors, but not merely an amalgamated integration of the 2 runes' magic, that would just be lazy on the part of the game designers
I will establish one mighty nation in this land... a single, powerful nation, born of force and wielding force... that's the one and only way of freeing this land from war.

Unleashing True Runes
https://youtu.be/Q7Ry1WmNMNg

User avatar
Raww Le Klueze
Global Admin
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:38 am

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Thu May 27, 2010 11:40 am

suiko2fan2 wrote:Their ultimate "intent" is to judge war

That's the power of the Rune of the Beginning, not the parts intents.

and perhaps if possible to become one

That is their only intent, and they achieve thus by pitting two friends against each other until one kills the other. To have a combined attack would thusly be stupid.

So, War, as you implied is not its intent

No such thing was implied. A fight between two people does not constitute a war.

judging war however is, a much higher echelon on the list

Nothing suggests the runes want to do this, it's merely stated that the owner of the Rune of the Beginning will have the power to judge war. This is not related to anything the Black Sword and Bright Shield do.
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.

User avatar
Jam-Jul Lison
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:50 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby Jam-Jul Lison » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:21 am

That is their only intent, and they achieve thus by pitting two friends against each other until one kills the other. To have a combined attack would thusly be stupid.



How can you say the runes only intent is to pit them against each other so the rune can merge? If that was the case then the 2 halves would have probably merged long ago. For all we know it was looking for 2 people who were worthy enough to wield the power of the runes. If that is the case then it stands to reason they could in fact have a combined attack. I think the only reasons the game doesn't have them is because 1. you only have the level 4 spells together for 1 battle 2. It would make the one battle rediculasly easy. Hell it is easy enough as is.

User avatar
Raww Le Klueze
Global Admin
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:38 am

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:32 am

How can you say the runes only intent is to pit them against each other so the rune can merge?

By virtue of playing the game and being able to understand the plot rather than just have it pass through.

http://www.suikosource.com/history/truerunes/

bearers of these two runes are bound by the rune's power to fight against each other until only one survives to win the other component

From the ending:

"Our two runes... together... they make a True Rune. But... if you use it by itself... it takes your life."

Basically, I pay attention.

For all we know it was looking for 2 people who were worthy enough to wield the power of the runes

We already know that that's not the case so no.
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.

Rezard
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby Rezard » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:46 am

According to Old Book 2 (Suikoden I):
The union of runes refers to harmony. In other words, Fire and Earth, and Wind, and Water, Water and Lightning, Lightning and Fire are harmonious. Ultimate power means the release of the maximum runic magic. When three of these powers are combined, the greatest of magical powers is unleashed.

As far as it was explained you need only harmony to have a combined rune attack, but what is harmony? It is not defined anywhere, it is up to interpretations and there's two possible interpretations:

- runes as opposites - the black sword and the bright shield are opposites, like fire and water, therefore there inst harmony.
- runes as complementary - the black sword and the bright shield make something together, if they can make something then there is harmony in their use together.

I dont think there is a correct answer to this, both make sense, therefore I think this is the best option to let the possibility open. If you want it is possible, if you dont want than it isnt.

User avatar
Nikisaur
Posts: 459
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:26 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby Nikisaur » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:14 am

I just realised I haven't posted my opinion on this! I've been reading it for long enough...

In my opinion- I always saw the two halves combined power (not exactly an attack) being healing Jowy/bringing him back from death's door. As they cause the bearers to confront eachother, a combined power/attack (or whatever you want to call it) kind of goes against the whole idea of having the two halves in the first place. Especially when they represent the conflict that began the universe and all the other true runes. Unless of course, as above, in the case of the two bearers overcoming their inevitable conflict, and thus the power of the two halves of the rune. Which would be epic enough to counter-act the epicness of the legend surrounding the rune.

Also- Rezard, I think, as is obvious in my previous statement (^Up thur^), that harmony would tend to mean making something together. Harmonious/complementary to me, sound pretty much the same. Where as opposites seem to exist to create an equilibrium by balancing eachother out, rather than work together towards the same goal.

...That all sounded a bit wanky, didn't it? Bah, I'm not re-reading it. That's how it came out of my head...
The only thing Suikoden lacks...is dinosaurs.

User avatar
jin022
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:51 pm

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby jin022 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:47 pm

- runes as opposites - the black sword and the bright shield are opposites, like fire and water, therefore there inst harmony.
- runes as complementary - the black sword and the bright shield make something together, if they can make something then there is harmony in their use together.
if two rune bearers of opposing runes manage to not fight each other and fight as one then maybe they could both unleash the power of the two runes when combined.

in the end Konami decides on these stuffs.

Crowley
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: Bright Shield and Black Sword combined attack, possible!

Postby Crowley » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:40 pm

Image

When I thought about the Bright Shield and Black Sword unite attack, I made this very crappy animation with pivot. The thing elevating that monster is the shield and then it flies up with a high speed then it crashes with the sword causing huge explosion with lots of energy blasting all around and it can´t be seen in the animation, but I also thought, that the shield and sword could shatter in to pieces and those pieces could also fall down on the enemy/enemies and damage them even more.


Return to “Plotline Theories”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests