WINDY!!!

[JanusThePaladin]

Or how about the Godwins in S5? They sought to bring the world under control via the Sun Rune, and to build a better Falenan Empire. To make all things good and right in their view. They may not have used methods we like, but that does not make them evil.

Jesus Christ, I have never read something like this before. How can you call genocide "methods we don't like"? If I apply your logic on the 3rd Reich, Hitler was a really un-evil man. He just wanted to build a better German Reich. Ok, we don't like his methods- but annihilating nearly the complete Jewish people doesn't make him evil... The methods of the Godwins were definitely evil. I agree to the extent that in the Suikoverse the frontier between good-evil isn't always clear(Jowy is a good example...), but if you don't judge people from their actions, how can you then call someone evil/good? By his looks?

EDIT: Ah, I'm missing the point a bit, but that has really upset me. And the Godwins' goals aren't good, either. I think the comparison to the 3rd Reich is quite good.

I was going to respond to this, but damnit Vextor, you're to good.

Anyway, I read an posted by Vextor in the "caucasian characters" thread that states that the Suikoden creators drew heavily on the Elric Saga for inspiration. I was wondering if you were refering to Micheal Moorecock's Elric Saga. If so, this makes me feel a whole hell of alot better about the stuff i've been blabbing about Chaos versus Law.

Specifically because both Vextor and Antimatzist mention actions in World War 2 which Micheal Moorcock actually wrote and Elric Saga book that deals with that era.

Sorry, off topic a bit, i know!

Let the discussion continue!

[Chaco]

Why the hell is peopel talking about Hitler and Chaos vs Evil? This is a topic about windy coming back in a future suikoden, this got WAY off topic there....

[Mio]

*raises hand

i believe i was one of the front runners in mentioning chaos and order, good and evil

~_~

[JanusThePaladin]

*smacks hand* this is not a race!

Anyway, i think the real question here is "Is Windy evil? Or is she simply misunderstood?" And as Mio says, E-laborate not E-Numerate or whatever....

[Mio]

since i am an optimistic and overall pleasant, nice, warm and loving person (i enforce that upon you reader)

i see the good in every people i meet, in this case character

so i believe she's just misunderstood

a lame counterplot would be that she was forced to the evil things she did because of her dying mother who just wanted to have an evil daughter

i said lame right

@Janus
*Counterpunch* no need to enumerate anything lol

[Zozma]

she may have been misunderstood, but even if she ever decided to start being a good girl she'll never be able to undo the damage that shes done to people. if she did flip sides shed probably end up biting the big one even faster...

[Mio]

now if i can only recall this properly...

was Windy genocidal like Luca and Marscal and Cray and Luc (almost)

i can only remember her slaying Ted

unless i got that wrong

there prolly still hope that she's not purely ummm... "radical"(?)

[Ben_ZeN]

Well she basically controlled Kwanda, Milich etc through them Black Runes, and no need to remind you how much people they killed (Elves to give an example). She didn't actually kill all that many herself, but she was however pulling the strings on nearly all the evil deeds of the empire.

Oh and she didn't technically kill Ted (even though once again pulling a lot of strings..), he commanded the Soul Eater to take his own life (or so we still believe till this day).

[Chaco]

Oh and she didn't technically kill Ted (even though once again pulling a lot of strings..), he commanded the Soul Eater to take his own life (or so we still believe till this day).

Ted had no choice but to kill himself because he didn't want to be under Windy's control, he said so himself. If Windy hadn't given him a Black Rune he would not have had to kill himself like that, he didn't want to endanger Tir or the Soul Eater either.

Windy in my mind was not sound of mind. She was clever in some of her schemes however I truly feel that she had at least some control over those with a black rune. I feel her obsession with True Runes caused her to go a little crazy, chasing Ted for hundreds of years for one true rune when there are at least 5 or 6 in Harmonia/Grasslands at the time.

I know she was at least sane enough to know who she could and couldn't defeat, like she didn't make the king attack Jowston or Harmonia (We know there were true runes in both places) and she did attack Ted's village, knowing she could with Yuber and Neclord's power. She was brilliant in using her black runes, her big mistake was underestimating Tir and Ted and most likely her biggest flaw was not seeing that the king had an obsession over her due to her appearance to Claudia (That was the name right?) and the fact that she didn't hold as much power as she felt she did.

[executorofbalance]

she may have been misunderstood, but even if she ever decided to start being a good girl she'll never be able to undo the damage that shes done to people. if she did flip sides shed probably end up biting the big one even faster...

True, but I think she's dead and the other half of the Gate rune went to Leknaat.

[Mikain Clan King]

True, but I think she's dead and the other half of the Gate rune went to Leknaat.

There hasn't been any confirmation as far as I know about Windy being dead, and you figure something big would have happened that Leknaat got the other half...but who knows maybe Leknaat is hiding it and maybe she may go crazy or somthing and be the final boss in S6.

[Vextor]

Leknaat doesn't have the other half, which is offiicial. The other half is missing.

[Chaco]

Earlier someone asked if we thought Windy is "Evil" or "misunderstood"

I am going to answer this base don fact not personal bias.

Windy, in my answer is misunderstood.
1) She killed MANY innocent people, HOWEVER most of them were indirectly killed by her, the only character she herself actually killed was Black.
2) Her obession with true runes was likely triggered by her seeing the power a true rune has. She is like many others in Suikoden such as Luca Blight, Harmonia (as a hole), and Cray, all wanted the power the true rune had to offer, but the differnce in her is she did it all tactically, using the Imperial army to receve Ted's rune. She wasn't the same as the "evil" characters such as Luca and Cray.
3) She had a resemblance to Claudia who the King loved, she most liekly had some feelings for him in return, can a person defined as "Evil" really love someone?

[JanusThePaladin]

Earlier someone asked if we thought Windy is "Evil" or "misunderstood"

I am going to answer this base don fact not personal bias.

Windy, in my answer is misunderstood.
1) She killed MANY innocent people, HOWEVER most of them were indirectly killed by her, the only character she herself actually killed was Black.

I cant disagree with this, it is a rather astute observation though.

2) Her obession with true runes was likely triggered by her seeing the power a true rune has. She is like many others in Suikoden such as Luca Blight, Harmonia (as a hole), and Cray, all wanted the power the true rune had to offer, but the differnce in her is she did it all tactically, using the Imperial army to receve Ted's rune. She wasn't the same as the "evil" characters such as Luca and Cray.

So wait, you're saying that manipulating people and a man who loves you into doing what they are supposed to think is better for the country but actually fills your personal agenda is not evil?

3) She had a resemblance to Claudia who the King loved, she most liekly had some feelings for him in return, can a person defined as "Evil" really love someone?

How about Hannibal Lector? Definitely a loving Evil. Or Poison Ivy?

[Chaco]

I think what the argument is if she is a "Misunderstood Evil" or a "Pure Evil" Like if she did what she did because she was insane/crazy evil or if she did what she did for a reason she felt was right and she herself was misunderstood and only did what she felt she could do.

So wait, you're saying that manipulating people and a man who loves you into doing what they are supposed to think is better for the country but actually fills your personal agenda is not evil?

She didn't know he loved her for being her, more she thought he loved her for her appearance of Claudia so she used this to her advantage, I don't find this evil, Morally wrong yes but not evil. It might also depend on your and my definition of evil.

I do agree with my third point being inncorrect, as your point of characters like Poision Ivy being a "Loving evil" is true, I neevr thought of it as such for some reason.