Gizel's Intentions SPOILERS

Hypotheses for, and analyses of, the various Suikoden characters.
MightyDustLoop
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Gizel's Intentions SPOILERS

Postby MightyDustLoop » Mon May 01, 2006 11:37 pm

SPOILERS THROUGH END OF GAME

Anyone care to tell me what Gizel's true intentions in the game were?

I honestly thought nothing fazed this guy. I know Lucretia is not a Silverburg, yet the Black Widow comments and overall way she carried herself made her, IMO, the most fearsome strategist yet. And yet somehow, the way Gizel carried himself made me feel like every move she made, even if it wasn't correctly predicted by himself, was still operating under his master plan.

I even expected him to turn on his father at some point, but it never happened. Was I just misreading this guy the whole game? I have a plausible theory, but it's really not based on much evidence. I'll at least add it to offer something to the discussion.

My only theory for his behavior, if it truly is as I describe it above, is that Gizel thought himself to be above his own emotions after his mother died. He merely played with lives and set traps to amuse himself to pass the time through life, and had no real desire of self preservation. But when the events with Sialeeds finished, it turns out that he had been mistaken and then truly does lose the will to live and just instigates his own downfall. Not even bothering to off Lym no less.

Any thoughts on Gizel's character, plans, intentions? Was he all a part of his own game, yet somehow didn't care to see it all plan out? Or am I just imagining this guy to have some stronger hidden motives this whole time?

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ShardStar
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Postby ShardStar » Tue May 02, 2006 5:28 am

Well for starters I don't believe was as cold blooded as some would like to think. I don't think he ever would have harmed Lym. It did seem odd that whenver the rebel army succeded that he didn't seem to mind at all. In fact Marscel even seemed to be willing to pass the torch in the end. Demanding that the Prince swears that he will not let the Sun Rune hold sway over everyone. Gizel and Marscel only ever wanted to make Falena strong, in their mind I think they accepted that Lym would always be the rightful ruler and if Prince was strong enough to take that from them then that was fate and the way it should be.

xXSqualleoNXx
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Postby xXSqualleoNXx » Tue May 02, 2006 6:17 am

I think Gizel just didn't care. As said before, he just had a kick out of people getting trapped in his halfassed schemes. Marscal was just too infatuated with the idea of drawing out the Sun Rune's power, but Gizel was just uncaring about anything. At the very end though, his emotions show through, as he goes along with Sialeeds plan, staying behind to force the Prince to kill him. It's obvious to the very end that Gizel loved Sialeeds. Whether it went the other way around too, it's still up for debate.
Last edited by xXSqualleoNXx on Tue May 02, 2006 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hmm...

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Belle
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Postby Belle » Tue May 02, 2006 6:54 am

I'm of the opinion that Gizel didn't really care, either. If you replay the game, you'll notice how all of Sialeeds' comments support that. She even mentions how the Zegai thing was "just a half-baked plot with no real outcome in mind."

I was also waiting for some kind of real justification, but I don't think Gizel had any. He tried to play it off as though he wanted the best for Falena. And while I can agree the power of the Sun Rune can be tempting, I don't buy that as being his only reason for causing such a splash. If I recall correctly, the Rune only made you crazy if you bore it. While Dad may have been seduced by the amount of power, it sounded like Son just had too much time on his hands.

Toward the end, I think Gizel was a little more interested in defending his so-called intentions rather than offing Lym.

Of course, I'm just going by what I know. I've known folks who are like this.

Falenan_descent
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Postby Falenan_descent » Tue May 02, 2006 7:56 am

If everything she did was known to him and was part of his master plan...that would make no sense as to why he died o_o;

Philweasel
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Postby Philweasel » Tue May 02, 2006 12:13 pm

Actually this made him one of my most hated bad guys, in a good way. All through the game I though he had some master plot and then finally I realised… he was just playing a game, destroying thousands of lives, killing all those people, almost making war on another country… because he was bored. The total freaking bastard.

xXSqualleoNXx
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Postby xXSqualleoNXx » Tue May 02, 2006 5:33 pm

Falenan_descent wrote:If everything she did was known to him and was part of his master plan...that would make no sense as to why he died o_o;


No, his master plan was that he had NO master plan. All along he was going along someone's else's plan, while he cooked up unecessary plots to keep himself interested. At the end and when it was inevitable that the Prince had won, he decided to go along Sialeeds' plan and force the Prince to off him.All along he had no real outcome, or master plan in mind. He was just having a kick of seeing everyone's struggles.
Hmm...

shuyin131

Postby shuyin131 » Wed May 03, 2006 11:21 am

This is what I've been saying/thinking about all along. Gizel never really had a plan, he did this just for fun. Playing around with people's lives like his playthings. I still see him as a young teenager/kid who never grew up, life as a noble caused him to be bored 99% of the time.

Since he was rich, he probably never knew the meaning of waste. He didn't care about other's well being because they look like lesser people compared to him. That's how most rich people think unfortunately.

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Mystil
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Postby Mystil » Wed May 03, 2006 12:21 pm

I think his change came when he couldn't marry Sialeeds and later have a family with her - remember thier conversation in his room. Even though thier marriage was a plot..he was happy with it cause he'd be with her. The corruption of the senate screwed up both of thier lives. He lost his mom, Sialeeds lost hers, her sister, etc. Yea he didn't give a damn anymore.
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MightyDustLoop
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Postby MightyDustLoop » Wed May 03, 2006 11:34 pm

Mystil wrote:I think his change came when he couldn't marry Sialeeds and later have a family with her - remember thier conversation in his room. Even though thier marriage was a plot..he was happy with it cause he'd be with her. The corruption of the senate screwed up both of thier lives. He lost his mom, Sialeeds lost hers, her sister, etc. Yea he didn't give a damn anymore.


I guess you're right. Even kind nobles would have to get used to the idea of being higher life forms. If not, they would lose influence to the people under them. Just like Kings and Queens on a smaller scale, and Lym having to go through with majestic and haughty services like her crowning to maintain legitimacy and power.

Or at least, with a father like Marscal, I'm sure Gizel viewed others this way somewhere down the road, as well as being force fed to believe that the Godwins are the only ones who can bring prosperity and end conflict by bringing an authoritative approach to a country with the political turmoil of Falena.

The wedding began as an arranged one, but it also happened to be what Gizel seemingly wanted. When he was stripped of the option like he himself was some kind of puppet, he began to view everyone as puppets. And just became amused at playing with people's lives, even if he was on the losing side. After all, his loyal "puppets" should be more than willing to die for him anyway. It would be fulfilling their purpose in his mind.

It's just...damn, he acted so sly. I really believed he was a mastermind. Dangerous and incapable of losing his cool. But I guess I can't imagine his motivation for that myself. There really isn't a lot left to motivate those actions when the girl you love wants you dead and you're working with the people who offed your mom.

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deedlitmurata
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Postby deedlitmurata » Tue May 09, 2006 8:54 pm

Yeah, I also think he was just playing a game.. there's also an interesting part, before the duel with the prince, they are surprised that he stayed behind, and he then says something like " what if my real plan was to assasinate Lym in front of you?" and then Lym tells him to stop speaking nonsense, that a proud man like him would never do such a rotten act, and he seems surprised, even says that he had underestimated the woman he had married xD that means she was right then, she kinda knew him.. and he ask forgiveness for being such a loser or something. There's also those dialogues with Sialeeds at the beginning in Stormfist that states that he had changed a lot since all that happened to them (about them not getting married). So, he really didn't care about anything in the end, it was just amusing to him? ~_~
Man is powerful enough to change destiny. No matter how futile our struggles seem, they all make a difference!

xXSqualleoNXx
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Postby xXSqualleoNXx » Tue May 09, 2006 9:09 pm

deedlitmurata wrote:Yeah, I also think he was just playing a game.. there's also an interesting part, before the duel with the prince, they are surprised that he stayed behind, and he then says something like " what if my real plan was to assasinate Lym in front of you?" and then Lym tells him to stop speaking nonsense, that a proud man like him would never do such a rotten act, and he seems surprised, even says that he had underestimated the woman he had married xD that means she was right then, she kinda knew him.. and he ask forgiveness for being such a loser or something. There's also those dialogues with Sialeeds at the beginning in Stormfist that states that he had changed a lot since all that happened to them (about them not getting married). So, he really didn't care about anything in the end, it was just amusing to him? ~_~


More or less. Let's remember even if he was going along his father's plans it really wasn't his plan. If anything, I'd say he screwed up his Marscal's plans a couple of times. First, by getting the Prince involved in the whole Stormfist deal, then by making use of the Dark Arcanum during the Sacred Games, which made Ferid wary of future use, hence evading the complete eradication of the Royal Family. Then he named Childerich a Queen's Knight, knowing, more or less, that the guy was a wild card and could easily messed up their plans with his bloodthirsty antics.

BTW, at the end, he actually said that he is sorry for being a sore loser, but he just had to point out that the Prince hadn't won himself, but rather, Sialeed's plan had suceeded. So, indeed, in spirit, Sialeeds had won.
Hmm...

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deedlitmurata
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Postby deedlitmurata » Tue May 09, 2006 11:14 pm

xXSqualleoNXx wrote:Then he named Childerich a Queen's Knight, knowing, more or less, that the guy was a wild card and could easily messed up their plans with his bloodthirsty antics.


Yeah, he must have know Childerich was going to bring trouble, and only that way, the Prince was able to gain the support from the people in Doraat, cause when you take it at first and speak with everybody, they all seem angry that the rebel army took the fortress, but after Childerich does all those inhumane things to the citizens, they lost all respect and believe they had for the queen's knights and the Godwin house. I'm sure Gizel, being as smart as he is, knew that was exactly what was going to happen.
Man is powerful enough to change destiny. No matter how futile our struggles seem, they all make a difference!

Darian
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Postby Darian » Tue May 09, 2006 11:38 pm

deedlitmurata wrote:
xXSqualleoNXx wrote:Then he named Childerich a Queen's Knight, knowing, more or less, that the guy was a wild card and could easily messed up their plans with his bloodthirsty antics.


Yeah, he must have know Childerich was going to bring trouble, and only that way, the Prince was able to gain the support from the people in Doraat, cause when you take it at first and speak with everybody, they all seem angry that the rebel army took the fortress, but after Childerich does all those inhumane things to the citizens, they lost all respect and believe they had for the queen's knights and the Godwin house. I'm sure Gizel, being as smart as he is, knew that was exactly what was going to happen.


So then do you think Gizel supported the Prince and/or Sialeeds over his own father, or just wanted to undermine Marscal's scheme?

I, too, am very confused by Gizel. Even if he is just entertaining himself with these schemes, is he still just a puppet of Marscal? Would using Childerich to push people toward's the Prince's side, undermining Marscal, also be one of thos schemes to just keep himself entertained?

I still don't know what to make of the guy... More incentive for the New Game + (the moment this semester is over).

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deedlitmurata
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Postby deedlitmurata » Tue May 09, 2006 11:50 pm

Maybe he wanted to help Sialeeds somehow? I kinda thought that, after speaking with the maid outside her room, she says that at first she thought Gizel was going to use her for his own purposes but then realised that wasn't the case, and that he saw right through her... hmm.. and that nothing of this would have happened if they had gotten married back then.

He was a wicked man, he liked to make his schemes to keep himself entertained, but at the same time, maybe deep inside, he had nothing to lose anymore, and somehow wanted Sialeeds to win. These are just speculations, we will never really know what went through his mind during all this conflict, we can just guess.
Man is powerful enough to change destiny. No matter how futile our struggles seem, they all make a difference!


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