Confirmed Returning Characters[HUGE SPOILERS KEKE?]

Hypotheses for, and analyses of, the various Suikoden characters.
Wraith
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Post by Wraith »

Raww Le Klueze wrote:I said beginning of Suikoden. The Gate Rune Wars last 3 years. 3 + 3 = 6
Ah yes, sorry.
epenthesis
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Post by epenthesis »

YouKnowYouGeddoe wrote:The Suikoverse is constructed, not real, so there's absolutely no justification for dropping the ball on a connection like this. What would Konami have lost by including him? Verisimilitude?

I think not. To paraphrase Anton Chekhov, Konami put a gun named Morgan on the wall, and it could have gone off in Suikoden V, but it didn't. Game design failure - end of story.
Wow, that's harsh. They remembered the character well enough to include the tournament and slavery as important plot points, but you think it's a fault that they didn't shoehorn this one specific character's story into an already-complicated new narrative?

Morgan's story doesn't exactly cry out for elaboration; it's self-contained and had little to do with the S1 plot. I would have liked the extra nod to continuity as well, but is it so important that its absence constitutes a flaw in the game? Hardly. This is not what Chekhov had in mind.
KFCrispy
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Post by KFCrispy »

i think it IS a flaw in their usually-careful character construction and missing a big opportunity to give fans of the entire series something extra to enjoy. this setting gave them an opportunity to further evolve an almost useless and meaningless character from a previous game, which could have only added to the story. even just to see ppl around the colliseum referring to some legend of the greatest champion in the arena who was blind would have shown Konami's dedication to its character development...

i bet if they make a side-game like they've been doing, it would definitely have some reference to Morgan...
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Post by epenthesis »

KFCrispy wrote:even just to see ppl around the colliseum referring to some legend of the greatest champion in the arena who was blind would have shown Konami's dedication to its character development...
Has it been confirmed that there's no reference to Morgan in the game whatsoever? I suspect it just hasn't been leaked.
Wraith
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Post by Wraith »

epenthesis wrote:
KFCrispy wrote:even just to see ppl around the colliseum referring to some legend of the greatest champion in the arena who was blind would have shown Konami's dedication to its character development...
Has it been confirmed that there's no reference to Morgan in the game whatsoever? I suspect it just hasn't been leaked.
The game is released and people have beaten it. he is not in the game, deal with it.
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Post by epenthesis »

Wraith wrote:The game is released and people have beaten it. he is not in the game, deal with it.
Wow. Harsh, again, especially since I was arguing that Morgan's absence isn't a big deal. (And since I haven't heard from anyone who finished with 108 stars.)

Anyway, if Morgan was indeed 18 at the time of S1 (as per the Sars timeline, at least), he'd be a child at the time of S5. Leaving him out of the latter game was thus necessary to preserve continuity, whether or not it would have made the fans happy to see him again.
Wraith
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Post by Wraith »

Yeah I'm a bit harsh ATM. Anyway it wasn't neciserally meant personally, just to those still thinking he might be in it.
epenthesis
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Post by epenthesis »

Understood. I've read about a thousand flamewars this week, so I'm a little sensitive.

I think the way they used Morgan is ultimately justified, anyway--his appearance in S1 didn't set up a return for the character, but it set up an interesting situation for the series to eventually return to. People who play S5 and then replay S1 will remember gladiators in Falena and (hopefully) be impressed that the details were consistent. That's a "fired gun" as far as I'm concerned, even if we never see Morgan himself again.
YouKnowYouGeddoe
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Post by YouKnowYouGeddoe »

I understand your point, but I still feel that nothing would have been lost if Konami had somehow included a young Morgan. I guess the question boils down to what we expect from a team of game designers.

We expect reasonably solid gameplay. We expect competitive graphics. We expect an appropriately descriptive soundtrack. In some cases, we expect chocobos.

Is it realistic to expect an expansive, colorful, internally consistent world? I think so, and the Suikoden series delivers. Given such a fabricated world, is it reasonable to expect that all 108 cylinders will fire, so to speak, every time a new game is released? It's a tall order, but in a series of games where the presence and continued investment of characters is a major source of connective tissue, I don't think it's asking too much that a barely-developed character from a ten-year-old game be brought back annd further explored in a game that meets all geographical and historical criteria.
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Post by epenthesis »

YouKnowYouGeddoe wrote:It's a tall order, but in a series of games where the presence and continued investment of characters is a major source of connective tissue, I don't think it's asking too much that a barely-developed character from a ten-year-old game be brought back annd further explored in a game that meets all geographical and historical criteria.
I hear you as well. I'm all in favor of continuity--I want the Suikoden team to err on the side of including as many characters as it reasonably can. But I think there needs to be a limit, and that limit is where the inclusion compromises the story rather than enhancing it.

I haven't played the game yet and don't know exactly what the situation is, but I can see why they might not want to bring a young Morgan in. They're constrained by the backstory that's already been established, and it raises questions: would he be fighting yet? Would he have his eyesight? Would he lose his eyesight over the course of the game? Would he have to escape slavery to become an SOD? If he were to fight on the winning side in a Falenan civil war, how would that track with his being sold as a slave to the Island Nations--wouldn't the S5 characters free him or at least improve his status?

I certainly believe that they could have answered these questions in S5. But I can also believe that they might have decided that it wasn't worth it for the sake of fleshing out a minor character, that it might end up detracting from more interesting stuff going on elsewhere. They clearly put a lot of effort into building the narrative that ties Georg, Killey and Lorelai together because they knew we were tantalized by the mysterious hints dropped in S2--with Morgan, the story has already been told.
YouKnowYouGeddoe
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Post by YouKnowYouGeddoe »

Better a high-integrity story that leaves out a character or two than a pandering Star Wars-esque fan concession? I see what you mean. If Morgan were on the winning team, his stories in I and V probably wouldn't have jived (jiven?).
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patapi
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Post by patapi »

Actually, it's quite obvious that they deliberately choose only those Falena-related characters who appeared in Suikoden II to return in the game. They even came up with a special unite attack for all four of them to acknowledge the fact that they ignored the other titles in the series, with regards to returning characters.

Including Morgan in the game would have spoilt this. And, it's quite interesting to see that the first Suikoden get no honour of having returning characters (unless they also appeared in II) despite being the closest in terms of timeframe and location (not counting IV, due to the time gap).
Anyway, if Morgan was indeed 18 at the time of S1 (as per the Sars timeline, at least), he'd be a child at the time of S5.
Which brings up the question: at what age did he win the tournament that led to the lost of his eyes? Surely that also took place when he was younger than 18, so as to be consistent with the timeline.
YouKnowYouGeddoe
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Post by YouKnowYouGeddoe »

I was going to stop beating this dead horse, but the issues Patapi raises bother me even more. What privileges Suikoden II to allow its characters into V but not characters from I, III, or IV? I guess II is kind of the fan favorite and maybe even the best-seller, but that seems quite arbitrary to me, especially when (said it once, said it a million times) Suikoden I - unlike III or IV - includes a character from Falena. (I am discounting Jeane and Viki, of course.)

Also, aren't there five characters returning - Georg, Killey, Lorelai, Viki, and Jeane? Maybe Jeane or Viki doesn't fight in V. I guess I'll just have to wait and find out.

The question about Morgan's blindness is equally troubling. It's inconceivable that Morgan would have been the top-ranked gladiator, been blinded, and been sold into slavery all before reaching the age of 18 and not be at least name-checked during Suikoden V's period.

The more I think about this, the madder I get, so I should probably stop checking this forum for a while.
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Post by epenthesis »

YouKnowYouGeddoe wrote:I was going to stop beating this dead horse, but the issues Patapi raises bother me even more. What privileges Suikoden II to allow its characters into V but not characters from I, III, or IV? I guess II is kind of the fan favorite and maybe even the best-seller, but that seems quite arbitrary to me, especially when (said it once, said it a million times) Suikoden I - unlike III or IV - includes a character from Falena. (I am discounting Jeane and Viki, of course.)
That perception isn't really accurate.

S2 had tons of references to S1.

S3 had a handful of references to S2 and one or two to S1 (Emily, for example, was the daughter of Ronnie Bell and one of the blacksmiths).

For obvious reasons, S4 had very few references to characters from any previous game, but it did include Ted from S1.

So S5 concentrates on S2 characters. Is there something wrong with that? Not only is it the fan favorite, but it's the game that sets up all of the necessary continuity for this game. I don't know what would be served by sharing the wealth.
The more I think about this, the madder I get, so I should probably stop checking this forum for a while.
"Madder"? Dude. It's a video game. A
video game
. Find something better to get mad about.
YouKnowYouGeddoe
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Post by YouKnowYouGeddoe »

I'm mad about better things too. Do you follow politics?

Anyway, I guess all I'm trying to say is that I like Suikoden I's characters as much as (if not more than) II's, and I was hoping Konami would throw us a bone in the form of somebody like Kasim or Kilawher or, heaven forfend, Morgan. I think a great deal of II's strength lay in its high returning-character count - conversely, this is one reason (albeit a small one) why Suikoden IV disappointed.

Any by the way - what I was saying in my earlier post is that I think it's capricious that Suikoden V's returning characters are only from Suikoden II, not that only Suikoden II includes connections to other games.
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