Yuber's rival....

Mymiridion · Post by **Mymiridion** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:28 pm

i dont think pesmerga would have anything more important than finding yuber but yeah i think he isnt as focused to find yuber as he was...but like i said i think Pesmerga even if his whole reason for living is to kill yuber never has his full focus on him...he joins ur team only cause your hero keeps running into him, but really the tru reason....is to give back yubers wallet

Onimaru · Post by **Onimaru** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:03 am

'erm, I'm not nessesarily a fan of Yuber/Pesmerga...infact, alot of you are far too infatuated with them. However, I'd like to point something out. The fact that Pesmerga was chilling in Neclords throne room in S1 makes perfect sence, consider the fact that Yuber Windy and Neclord were at one point a preety toughass trio. So he's gone to find Neclord, suspecting that Yuber'll be nearby, or perhaps to question Neclord on Yubers wereabouts. As for his winding up in the star dragonsword cave, well..'erm, same thing I suppose. Perhaps he went to get the sword to slay Neclord (Maybe the swords got some sort'a power against Yuber as well..not saying he's a vampire, that's just a tough sword) and found that the sword'd already been taken. Eitherway, those are not stupid locations for Pesmerga to be, they make complete sence really. To imply that he's got bad direction, compareing him to Ruara and Hortez, well....that's just wrong. Apologise..

Zotmaster · Post by **Zotmaster** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:03 pm

That's hardly a plausible theory at all. First, Yuber's never shown any long-standing loyalty to anyone. To think that Yuber would follow someone or even associate with someone after all those years seems very inconsistent with his personality. Why would he bother staying with Neclord, anyway? Neclord wants women to keep forever, Yuber wants large-scale death. Their aims are too different for Yuber to have any association with Neclord for a long period of time. The idea of Pesmerga questioning Neclord also seems a little ridiculous, as Pesmerga is hardly the investigative type. Pesmerga has one thing on his mind and he doesn't deviate from it. He also takes a direct approach. If Pesmerga wanted an investigation, he'd have hired Richmond. Notice how Pesmerga talks to your party. All he says is he's after Yuber and he'll follow you as long as it means he can get closer to Yuber.

Also, what would Pesmerga want with the Star Dragon Sword? He never gives any indication that he even wants it: he's just there. I figure if he wanted the sword, he'd have taken it himself if he had gotten there first, or he'd have killed Viktor and taken the sword from him if Viktor had already claimed it. The Star Dragon Sword also never makes a mention of Pesmerga or Yuber, and the sword has long-standing enemies, as indicated through Viktor and, later, Edge. If the sword wanted a part of Pesmerga or Yuber, it would have made its intention known. And again, Pesmerga gives no indication that Yuber had been there, either - also, I have to ask you why Yuber would have been in the cave himself - but rather he just says he'll follow you if he can get to Yuber that way. That seems to imply that Pesmerga doesn't know where Yuber is, don't you think?

[EDIT:] I just thought of one more reason why Yuber being at Neclord's castle makes absolutely no sense, which, in turn, implies that Pesmerga is more brawn than brain. If you remember, years before, Neclord had stolen Sierra's Blue Moon Rune, which happens to be a True Rune. Quoting Suikosource itself, "Yuber harbors a great hatred towards other True Runes and actively tries to destroy whoever wields their power. The cause for this is unknown as well."

Conclusion: If Yuber had ever shown up in Neclord's castle, it would have been to kill Neclord.

Onimaru · Post by **Onimaru** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:44 pm

If I'm not mistaken it's Yuber, Neclord, and Windy who assaulted Teds village, correct? Then yes, Neclord is a known associate of Yubers, if for 300 something years Neclord and Yuber had been associates of Windys. There is a connection between the three, and that right there's a reason for Pesmerga to seek out Neclord. Whyelse would Pesmerga be chillin in those places? You think the Suikostaff just didnt know wherelse to put him? They just dropped him off in some randome location, both of wich just HAPPENED to be connected to Neclord? I think not!

So, it stands...the theory's plausible, more plausible than just saying that Pesmerga happened to get lost. If anything, everything in the suikoworld has a purpose and history, that's what attracted all us fans to the series.

Note: If Yubers so mindless as to try and destroy any true rune bearer, then why was he in the employ of Windy, who posessed half the gate rune? Why was he in the service of Jowy who not only ruled over the Sword rune, but also the Beast rune that resided in the Highland castle? I'm not saying that Pesmerga wanted to track down Neclord because he thought Yuber and he were old buddies. Just that Neclord might have information as to where Yuber would be, assumeing maybe that Yuber was still in the employ of Windy, if that was the case than he wanted to ask Nec where Wndy was.

Zotmaster · Post by **Zotmaster** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:20 pm

Onimaru wrote:Note: If Yubers so mindless as to try and destroy any true rune bearer, then why was he in the employ of Windy, who posessed half the gate rune? Why was he in the service of Jowy who not only ruled over the Sword rune, but also the Beast rune that resided in the Highland castle? I'm not saying that Pesmerga wanted to track down Neclord because he thought Yuber and he were old buddies. Just that Neclord might have information as to where Yuber would be, assumeing maybe that Yuber was still in the employ of Windy, if that was the case than he wanted to ask Nec where Wndy was.

That's a good question, except you didn't acknowledge the key fact that I mentioned that answers it.

Why wouldn't Yuber continue to follow Neclord? Because he has nothing to gain by doing so. Windy's original plan would have resulted in the deaths of many, many people. Not surprisingly, Yuber was there. When it went sour, Yuber was gone. By the end of Suikoden 2, again, Yuber is nowhere to be found. His employers have gone past their usefulness, and so he bails out. He can't get the large-scale chaos he craves, and there's a danger to his situation, so he's out like a light.

My theory as to why he doesn't try to off the likes of Windy is based on Yuber's reaction to Luc in Suikoden 3. There's no doubt that Yuber knew about Luc's True Rune. Why, then, did he not go after Luc? I would say it's because Yuber's desire to kill many is greater than his desire to kill one. Notice how he may try to probe Luc for questions - especially in Luc's POV - but he never really shows any open hostility to Luc. Yuber knows that he can kill millions if he goes along with Luc. What satisfaction would he get for offing just one person in lieu of being able to off a million? So instead of averting the war and eliminating a True Rune bearer, we see Yuber on the front lines trying to kill as many Zexens and Grasslanders he possibly can. When he's bested in combat at the very end, he realizes that Luc's plan won't work, and so he bails out. But as his profile says during the ending, he's been seen elsewhere leading an army of monsters. I figure he's off to try to find more people to kill.

Archangelknux2 · Post by **Archangelknux2** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:42 pm

This is just my theory on the relationship between Yuber and Pesmerga, and what is in the future for them.
My thoughts:
Yuber and Pesmerga represent/are the incarnations of Chaos and Dharma. Luc's prediction of Dharma winning over chaos and the balance being destroyed may predict the victor inevitable duel between Yuber and Pesmerga.Yuber creates chaos and can summon the dead/undead to do his bidding (MAYBE with his Chaos/Eightfold Rune, im still unsure of it's existance) They are like the mirages (same amor, and don't make sounds when they move, and they come from the same realm as yuber)
Has anyone noticed that the Mirages' Special Attack has the same background as Yuber when he uses his Eight Devil Rune. THAT is what makes me think he is like a mirage. NOW we don't know enought about Pesmerga to say the same but its still fun to hypothesize.

Post by **KFCrispy** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:44 am

maybe Pesmerga's linked with the Night Rune / Star Dragon Sword instead of just chasing Neclord, because both locations you find him are when the Sword's power was used. Neclord was not in the Cave of the Wind, at least he was never there during Suikoden 2's time period.

maybe he wants to use the sword/rune to kick Yuber's arse!

but of course we can say he can sense the sword's power but only chases it cuz of Neclord, who he chases on cuz of Yuber...

Zotmaster · Post by **Zotmaster** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:22 pm

I don't think that's true, KFCCrispy. If he could sense the Night Rune, he would have found the sword. If he wanted the sword, he'd have tried to take it from Viktor, and there's no doubt in my mind who would have won that exchange.

This is speculation, but there is logic behind my thoughts.

I'm going under the assumption that Pesmerga and Yuber have fought before. I've heard that there was a point in history where they've fought each other, and neither won.

The implication here is that Pesmerga and Yuber are on roughly equal terms. There may be a slight imbalance in power, but they're close enough that one couldn't easily defeat the other.

Notice all the trouble any party has with Yuber in all of the Suikoden games. Sure, you can beat him - and in Suikoden 3, you can beat him many times - when you have a party of six, but even then, you can't truly defeat him. Hugo - probably the best overall fighter, and third or fourth best hitter in Suikoden 3 - fights Yuber one-on-one and gets absolutely annihilated. By the end of the game, Hugo can probably beat Yuber in a straight-up fight, but he still can't defeat Yuber outright.

My conclusion? Yuber is either stronger than he lets on (less likely) or is nigh-impossible to truly defeat (more likely).

Your party can't truly defeat Yuber. Yuber can't truly kill Pesmerga. My conclusion?

Viktor could pick any five other Stars of Destiny and they still wouldn't be able to defeat Pesmerga. Pesmerga would get the Star Dragon Sword, by hook or by crook, no matter what, if it was what he was after.

faythcatcher · Post by **faythcatcher** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:28 pm

Zot: I think you've got it all wrong. Pesmerga is more brains than brawn, and Yuber is more brawns than brains. I believe that Pesmerga and Yuber are linked beyond the ties of their armor & general creepy-ness. They are yin & yang, positive & negative.. whatever.

Look at it this way, what does Yuber want? Mass death & chaos. Which would allow him to hang around with Neclord & Windy for such a long time, because they did destroy villages & what-have-you. What does Pesmerga want? We don't know, aside from Yuber.

So, before & during Suikoden1 is when Yuber was causing the most damage. Pesmerga knows that he cannot win in a fight with Yuber, and nor can Yuber beat Pesmerga in a fight. But, Yuber does not know this. Yuber is so concerned with killing everyone & everything, and destroying the True Runes. .. he doesn't know about he & Pesmerga's link. Pesmerga shows up at certain points in time to ward Yuber off. Kind of like "quit meddling in the affairs with humans" & what-not. Pesmerga is not out to kill Yuber, because he knows in doing so that he will obliterate the entire world.

Pesmerga in Neclords Castle: Pesmerga probably has a sixth sense of sorts that attracts evil. Although, since he is a positive force, cannot kill Neclord or probably can't evil fight him, he was going out to spook Yuber out of participating in the Gate Rune War. Why? Well, because although chaos is needed, Yuber doesn't know when to stop. He will keep on killing until there is nothing left to kill. I mean, it is far-fetched, but Pesmerga wants both of them to stay out of the Wars as much as possible.

Pesmerga at Star Dragon Sword Location: This one is pretty straight-forward. Pesmerga was waiting for Yuber to arrive at your castle along with the rest of the Highland army. Then he would make his move to stop Yuber from interfereing with the outcome any longer. ~_~

That's my 2cents.

Zotmaster · Post by **Zotmaster** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:12 pm

There is absolutely no proof or evidence of anything you just said.

Pesmerga more brains than brawn? When? I don't see one particular moment of intelligence. He's just standing there and happens to go along with you.

When does Pesmerga ward Yuber off? Certainly not in the timeline of any of the three games, as the two never cross paths.

How will killing Yuber cause the world to be destroyed? There's no evidence of that, either. True Rune bearers have passed on during the timeline of the games and there was no mass destruction that came of it.

As for where Pesmerga was when you cross his path, he says he was looking for Yuber, which throws your whole "waiting for Yuber to go to Point A" theory out the window. If Pesmerga is looking for Yuber and says as much, he obviously does not know where Yuber is. The fact that Pesmerga is just standing around in places where Yuber has no business going to further cements the idea that Pesmerga doesn't know, as does the fact that Yuber gives Pesmerga the slip after both games.

With all due respect, your theory sounds like an idealistic fanboy theory. As far as the games go, there's no evidence to even remotely support any of that.

Highland Swordmaiden · Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:14 pm

or maybe Pesmerga knows that eventually they will find each other because of their runes. just a theory but what if they are like star dragon sword (or zodiac if you will) and incarnations of the runes they bear. could be that they are destined to battle each other much like the rune of beginning and that both of them are well aware of this.

Red Killey · Post by **Red Killey** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:12 pm

That's hardly a plausible theory at all. First, Yuber's never shown any long-standing loyalty to anyone. To think that Yuber would follow someone or even associate with someone after all those years seems very inconsistent with his personality.

You could question this if you already knew what he was like (not loyal). But obviously Pesmerga didn't know about Yuber's history of loyalty to his employer, which is perfectly understandable. So a smart man would go to the "friend" of Yuber, which in this case was Neclord. Fact is, Neclord had been related to Yuber, so it would make sense to ask Neclord about Yuber. Why? Because Neclord *might* know where Yuber was. Keyword: might. When you're trying to find someone, you'd take any possibilities that could be right.

Why would he bother staying with Neclord, anyway? Neclord wants women to keep forever, Yuber wants large-scale death. Their aims are too different for Yuber to have any association with Neclord for a long period of time.

Actually I would think that they'd stay together had Windy employed them forever. When they worked together, it wasn't for their own goals, but more for Windy's anyway. With the fact that her goal (of getting Souleater) wasn't reached yet, it *is* plausible to assume that Neclord and Yuber were still working together to help Windy.

The idea of Pesmerga questioning Neclord also seems a little ridiculous, as Pesmerga is hardly the investigative type.

I don't get how you came to the conclusion of Pesmerga not being the investigate type. All he needed was to ask "Where is Yuber?" to Neclord. Richmond or no Richmond, Pesmerga could do that.

All he says is he's after Yuber and he'll follow you as long as it means he can get closer to Yuber.

Which is exactly why it's plausible for him to question Neclord. Because it could take him closer to Yuber.

Also, what would Pesmerga want with the Star Dragon Sword? He never gives any indication that he even wants it: he's just there.

Think about it this way. In Gate Rune War, Pesmerga did find Yuber with the help of the Liberation Army. He got help from Liberation Army by being in a place that was related to Neclord. Then come Dunan Unifitation War. He heard news about vampires attacks and all that. He knew that Star Dragon Sword would be needed to slay Neclord. So he went there and waited for allies to find Yuber. If it worked once before in S1, why not try again in S2. And voila!!! They did help him finding Yuber.

Conclusion: If Yuber had ever shown up in Neclord's castle, it would have been to kill Neclord.

Actually it doesn't make sense for you to say that. The reason is simple which is because despite hating True Runes, Yuber didn't mind working together with True Rune bearers at all (proven by Windy, Neclord, Jowy, Beast Rune, and Luc).

If he wanted the sword, he'd have tried to take it from Viktor, and there's no doubt in my mind who would have won that exchange.

The key is not that Pesmerga wanted the sword, but he wanted to link the sword to Neclord (who hopefully could link to Yuber as well).

Pesmerga more brains than brawn? When? I don't see one particular moment of intelligence. He's just standing there and happens to go along with you.

He stood there knowing that he'd be recruited for the "official storyline". To me, it's quite a smart move. Why search for Yuber alone when you could find them together with 107 other SoDs? That's brain to me. But I know it's hard to believe. As much as I don't think he's really *that* smart, he's not stupid enough to say "more brawn than brain" (which sort of implicates him being a no-brainer) either.

When does Pesmerga ward Yuber off? Certainly not in the timeline of any of the three games, as the two never cross paths.

Well they had crossed path before. They fought just outside Gregminster during the Gate Rune War. So for you to say that they never crossed path before is wrong.

How will killing Yuber cause the world to be destroyed? There's no evidence of that, either. True Rune bearers have passed on during the timeline of the games and there was no mass destruction that came of it.

I think we go back to what Murayama said before that the conclusion of Yuber-Pesmerga battle (when one wins and one loses) could only happen in final Suikoden. Might not mean that the world would be destroyed, but it would definitely be significant enough to reach something similar.

Zotmaster · Post by **Zotmaster** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:42 pm

I think you kind of misinterpreted a few things I said, Killey, which I'll get to later.

As far as questioning Neclord since Neclord -might- know where Yuber is, I'll give you that, but considering it had been, what, centuries since the two were last together, I think you're talking very, very long odds, which might actually further cement the fact that Pesmerga is not bright. "Hey yo, I know you haven't had any contact with your friend in 200 years, but do you know where I might find him?"

Yuber's staying with Windy forever if she allowed him to makes no sense in the context of the games. Have you noticed that he sticks around for as long as he can cause large-scale death, and when it either winds down or gets risky, he leaves? He does this in all three games. Sure, he's tough as nails during the Gate and Dunan wars, but once his side starts to lose, he's gone without a trace. Same with Luc. Once Luc's plan begins to unravel and Yuber realizes it's not going to work - probably proven when he loses to either Geddoe or Hugo - he disappears and is seen later on leading an army of monsters. He's back to killing: something he couldn't do if he'd stuck around. I think that disproves your point for anything other than saying that Yuber was under Windy's employment solely to kill anyone who tries to keep her from getting the Soul Eater. However, that is even iffy because I doubt that's a lot of people.

I get my "investigative type" comment solely by looking at Pesmerga's character in the first two games. He has his one mini-spiel when you recruit him, possibly some "canned" phrases, and that's it. The fact that Pesmerga misses Neclord kind of leads me to further believe he doesn't see much past killing Yuber, either. He had an awful long time to catch up to Neclord, even if he was a sneaky vampire, which seems highly unlikely, seeing as how Neclord makes it pretty obvious where he is. You gotta admit, being a hundred-plus years late and then questioning someone about the whereabouts of someone they saw over a century ago is a sign you might be a little...dense?

That said, I think there were much better sources he could have tapped, so to speak, to figure out where Yuber was. In the context of the games, Yuber really isn't hard to find. The fact that Pesmerga has stuck around and has freakish powers and an inhuman personality seems to tell me that he is, well, a cut above Joe Average, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume, even if it's "behind the scenes", that there was something else he could have done, like follow Yuber's trail of destruction, for instance, without being over a hundred years behind that trail.

As for where you find Pesmerga in both games, here's the other reason why he can't be smart: he's too late. He comes to Neclord's castle after you fight off Neclord. You find him where the Star Dragon Sword was well after Viktor already came and got it. In a storyline sense, there was absolutely no reason for Tir or Riou to visit those places again after having already gone through. What is there for Tir, going through Neclord's castle again? Except Pesmerga: nothing. What is there for Riou in the Cave of the Wind, that second time through? Except Pesmerga: nothing. There was no reason for them to come back, so Pesmerga hit dumb luck more than anything else. Let's also not forget the fact that by the time Pesmerga shows up in the Cave of the Wind, Neclord's already dead. See? Pesmerga's clueless: he's behind the times, he's a day late and a dollar short, he doesn't know what's going on.

As for your next point about Yuber's wanting to kill Neclord making no sense, you missed some important things I said. In my post after the one you quoted, I said something that more or less answers the questions:

Why, then, did he not go after Luc? I would say it's because Yuber's desire to kill many is greater than his desire to kill one.

So sure, Yuber would have cooperated with Neclord back when they were under Windy, because he had something to gain from it: lots and lots of dead people. Once that's out, what does he have to gain from working with Neclord? Absolutely nothing. If he hates True Runes and their bearers, and actively tries to destroy both, it makes sense that he would have nothing to do with Neclord from that point on, unless it was to kill him, because Yuber cannot get the mass death and chaos he craves.

Put simply, here are what I believe are Yuber's two priorities, which are consistent with the personality we see in the games:

1) Mass death and chaos, which is higher
2) The destruction of True Runes and the death of their bearers, which is lower

He can't get his high priority with Neclord, so if he had any association with Neclord, he'd go for what's next on the list: the destruction of Neclord's True Rune.

Linking the sword to Neclord? Well, maybe...but again, I think Pesmerga missed the boat by quite a bit, as explained above. I'll concede the point that that mayhave been his thought process, but I will maintain that it was a very poor thought process, which is consistent with his "Yuber first, last, and only" mentality.

Again, his getting recruited seems like dumb luck because there was no reason for Tir or Riou to go back to those places where they found him. Unless you believe they were "destined" to find him, which is kind of stupid and really isn't shown at any point in any of the games.

For Pesmerga fighting Yuber off, I meant there was no evidence of that in the games themselves. I should have worded that better. My mistake. Even so, there was, I believe, only one major encounter between the two, with that being the one you mentioned. That comment was directed to faythcatcher with regard to his comment that Pesmerga shows up at certain points in time to ward Yuber off and do something akin to saving the world. That said, I still should have worded it better.

As for their final battle, in all honesty, the only way I can see it affecting the whole world is if the two of them damage the world in something akin to a Dragonball Z-style fight while they go at it, because True Runes have gone out of control, and their bearers have died, and nothing catastrophic happened, although I won't deny that the True Fire Rune did a great deal of damage. Again, though, that, though significant, is not catastrophic.

Hope that clears things up.

Red Killey · Post by **Red Killey** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:07 pm

Zotmaster wrote:I think you're talking very, very long odds, which might actually further cement the fact that Pesmerga is not bright. "Hey yo, I know you haven't had any contact with your friend in 200 years, but do you know where I might find him?"

How do you know that Pesmerga already knew that Neclord had no contact with Yuber for 200 years? You don't. For all he knew, Neclord might work together with Yuber last year or whatnot. That's the whole point in asking Neclord. To find out the recent information about Yuber because Pesmerga didn't know yet.

Yuber's staying with Windy forever if she allowed him to makes no sense in the context of the games.

Why not? Yuber was hired by Windy to get Souleater Rune in the past. Windy still hadn't got the Souleater Rune in Gate Rune War. It's perfectly logical to consider that he might still work for her. Whether it's true or not, that's another case, but it's perfectly logical to think if he still was.

Have you noticed that he sticks around for as long as he can cause large-scale death, and when it either winds down or gets risky, he leaves? He does this in all three games.

Again, you used something that you didn't know ealier. You could say all this because we knew that Yuber ran away all the time in the past 3 games. But you didn't know that earlier during Gate Rune War.

I think that disproves your point for anything other than saying that Yuber was under Windy's employment solely to kill anyone who tries to keep her from getting the Soul Eater.

I don't get what you meant with this part. When/where did I say that Yuber was hired solely to kill anyone who tries to keep her from getting Souleater? I said that Yuber was hired to help getting Souleater for Windy.

You gotta admit, being a hundred-plus years late and then questioning someone about the whereabouts of someone they saw over a century ago is a sign you might be a little...dense?

Again, how did Pesmerga know that Neclord had had no contact with Yuber for centuries? He didn't. And keep in mind that Yuber was only known to have worked with Windy and Neclord in the past. Since Windy was in Gregminster Palace, which would be so hard to penetrate due to the soldiers and the Generals, asking Neclord would be the more possible task to do.

That said, I think there were much better sources he could have tapped, so to speak, to figure out where Yuber was. In the context of the games, Yuber really isn't hard to find. The fact that Pesmerga has stuck around and has freakish powers and an inhuman personality seems to tell me that he is, well, a cut above Joe Average, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume, even if it's "behind the scenes", that there was something else he could have done, like follow Yuber's trail of destruction, for instance, without being over a hundred years behind that trail.

Show me a prove of Yuber's trail of destruction. I mean, real one that basically showed Yuber's and not SME's or Highland's. I don't think there is such thing to be honest. Yuber, unlike Neclord, caused destruction but under the name of the army/nation. So it would be hard to follow him that way because you don't know whether he was hired by that nation or not (townspeople would say "SME/Highland destroyed X city" NOT "Yuber destroyed my hometown"). Whereas Neclord worked under his own name, to get brides. So it would be more possible to find him than to find Yuber (who could work for any nation in the Suikoden world).

As for where you find Pesmerga in both games, here's the other reason why he can't be smart: he's too late.

Since when being late means not smart? Being late only means that he was late. That's about it. Clive could be too late to find Elza, that doesn't mean that he's stupid. Shu could be too late to convince Riou to keep fighting, doesn't mean that he's stupid.

In a storyline sense, there was absolutely no reason for Tir or Riou to visit those places again after having already gone through.

In storyline sense, there was absolutely no reason for Tir or Riou to visit many places again after they went through it. No reason to go back to recruit Rubi/Gon/FuSuLu in Kobold Village. No reason to go back to recruit Hoi/Stallion/Vincent/Yoshino in Radat, etc etc. Using storyline to back your point here is pointless because it's applicable to so many characters in the games.

so Pesmerga hit dumb luck more than anything else.

Well so did many other SoDs if you look at it that way. And we'd have no Suikoden if we do everything by your point of view.

If he hates True Runes and their bearers, and actively tries to destroy both, it makes sense that he would have nothing to do with Neclord from that point on, unless it was to kill him, because Yuber cannot get the mass death and chaos he craves.

Okay, since you're so sure that Yuber hates True Runes and their bearers, and actively tries to destroy both, then why didn't he pursue Neclord? Or kill him as soon as the two didn't work for Windy any longer? You said it yourself that he had nothing to gain by working with Neclord anymore, so why not kill him right there and then?

Again, his getting recruited seems like dumb luck because there was no reason for Tir or Riou to go back to those places where they found him. Unless you believe they were "destined" to find him, which is kind of stupid and really isn't shown at any point in any of the games.

Read the earlier reply on this about other SoDs.

As for their final battle, in all honesty, the only way I can see it affecting the whole world is if the two of them damage the world in something akin to a Dragonball Z-style fight while they go at it, because True Runes have gone out of control, and their bearers have died, and nothing catastrophic happened, although I won't deny that the True Fire Rune did a great deal of damage. Again, though, that, though significant, is not catastrophic.

I think the key for now is that we don't know what/who Pesmerga and Yuber are. So it's very possible that they could create something catastrophic by the time one of them died.

Zotmaster · Post by **Zotmaster** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:42 am

We were talking about only Pesmerga, or, more accurately, Yuber's rival, here, not about anyone else, unless it's related to Pesmerga. What's important is Pesmerga, and how he ties to Yuber. Ergo, anything that has to do with Yuber that can be related to Pesmerga (including, but not limited to, why Yuber went here and why Pesmerga did this) is important.

We're giving theories on a character, explaining who he might be and why he might be that way. Therefore, to limit yourself to just one game makes absolutely no sense. We have three games to look over, and all three of them paint a fairly vivid picture on who - or, more precisely, what - Yuber is. I know Yuber has a tendency to run away when things look dangerous. That's an important part of Yuber's personality, and just because it wasn't concretly hammered into our head until the third game for the slow or the second game for the quicker-witted doesn't matter. It's a key to who he is and we have to make note of it.

My whole point about Yuber's staying with Windy making no sense is that it goes against Yuber's personality. Thinking in terms of Yuber's character, what could possibly have been his reasons to follow Windy? Well, we know Yuber's two motives, which I outlined in the above post: large-scale death, and the destruction of True Runes and the deaths of their bearers. These we know to be true, so we must use them to examine the case. Windy wants the Soul Eater. For Yuber to have any reason whatsoever to follow her, it would have to be either so he could kill lots of people, or to destroy True Runes. So unless Yuber was out to either kill lots of people or destroy True Runes - in this venture, the only True Rune I can think of that he would be able to get at would be the Soul Eater itself - he would have absolutely no reason to follow Windy. Since killing people is the high priority for him, I suggested that the people who would try to stop Windy from getting the Soul Eater is a fairly limited market. Ergo, Yuber does not remain under Windy's employment forever. He leaves so he can go kill more stuff. This is consistent with Yuber's character. There's nothing we know to really suggest otherwise.

How did Pesmerga know Yuber and Neclord hadn't kept in touch? He didn't. You're absolutely right. As I illustrated later, Pesmerga does not know what is going on. He has a one-track mind, and it's focused on Yuber. Pesmerga not knowing about significant events further cements this idea, as does the fact that the only dialogue he ever gives always has something to do with Yuber. Due to Neclord's conspicuousness, I'm sure the information could have been had with a little work. But again, it takes Pesmerga centuries to catch up with someone as easily visible as Neclord. He's dense.

Perhaps it's just my fuzzy memory, but doesn't anyone in Ted's town or anything allude to the fact that Yuber came and wrecked house? If they solely mentioned Windy that's my mistake. I just seem to remember Yuber's name coming up there. The concrete destruction of Yuber's is when he leads battles, whether it be S1 or S2. Anything anyone does under Yuber, regardless of who he works for, would be attributed to their general: Yuber. People, common or otherwise, know of these kind of things. When Jowy takes Greenhill, even though Fitcher hasn't seen Jowy, even though no one knew who this new general was, he still knows enough to paint an accurate picture of Highland's conquering general. While it's only proven that Yuber lead a group of whatevers in the games, it is entirely consistent with his personality to believe that Yuber was not idle in the past. There is sufficient evidence to support this, so even though it is not proven, per se, it is hardly an unjustified theory. I find it hard to believe Pesmerga or anyone else couldn't have tracked Yuber down this way.

Whether or not Yoshino, Stallion, whoever were recruited in the same fashion is entirely irrelevent to this discussion. We are talking about Pesmerga and things related to him. Whether or not he shares a common recruitment method with FuSuLu doesn't matter. There is a point in bringing it up, though. Remember where you found Pesmerga. In a now abandoned vampire's castle, and then in an old cave. Although it isn't the strongest of arguments, at least it makes reasonable sense to think Tir and Riou might have visited a town more than once. But a vampire's castle whose inhabitant got the boot, so to speak, or a cave whose only purpose for venturing was already exhausted? I think not. (As for Yoshino, doesn't Freed say he wants to go back home at some point? So it makes sense that you come across Yoshino. That's off-topic though.)

Again, doesn't matter how many SoD's are like that. We're talking about Pesmerga and what kind of person he is.

You then ask why Yuber didn't persue Neclord and attempt to kill him. I already answered this in my previous post, and actually again in a post prior to that. I'll quote my most recent post:

Put simply, here are what I believe are Yuber's two priorities, which are consistent with the personality we see in the games:

1) Mass death and chaos, which is higher
2) The destruction of True Runes and the death of their bearers, which is lower

He can't get his high priority with Neclord, so if he had any association with Neclord, he'd go for what's next on the list: the destruction of Neclord's True Rune.

Am I 100% sure? Obviously not. But there is evidence in all three games that supports that point, namely the fact that Yuber does work with True Rune bearers without a problem - Neclord, Jowy, and Luc come to mind - but only while he's killing people. When that runs out, he leaves. I was saying that, given what Neclord was doing, the only reason Yuber would have had anything to do with Neclord after the Windy days was to kill him, since mass death wasn't on Neclord's agenda. Obviously, though, Yuber did not go after Neclord, which further cements the idea that mass death and chaos is more important to him. I figure that, given these facts, Yuber would only actively try to destroy True Runes and their bearers as, perhaps, a last resort, or if there's no one left to kill. You have to admit, if he hates them so much, it makes no sense that he'd work with True Rune bearers. But the fact that he only does it while he can kill lots of people makes sense, and establishes it as Yuber's main agenda.

For the final battle, I concede that point. Yuber and Pesmerga could possibly be powerful enough to cause a catastrophic disaster. I am merely going on what we know of Yuber's power at this point. Obviously, he's freakishly strong. A party of six in a novice's hands has little to no chance of beating Yuber at any point in Suikoden 3. In strategy battles, he is on the front lines, leading an army of monsters with obvious confidence and a touch of arrogance. In the only one-on-one fight he partakes in, Yuber beats probably the best overall fighter the Suikoden world has ever known - Hugo - within an inch of his life. Having established what kind of strength Yuber has, and establishing the fact that in their one encounter, Pesmerga and Yuber could not get the better of the other one, one can surmise that Pesmerga is roughly on par with Yuber in terms of strength (makes sense, it's the only reason one couldn't overpower the other right away). The strength Yuber showed though would not be enough to destroy the world, though, and even doubling that (adding in Pesmerga) wouldn't be enough either. So either Yuber is holding back something - which makes good sense, but how much is a little tougher to answer - or he's flat-out not that powerful.