Yuber's rival....

[Red Killey]

We're giving theories on a character, explaining who he might be and why he might be that way. Therefore, to limit yourself to just one game makes absolutely no sense.

I agree, but you're using your knowledge (of the three games) to prove that Pesmerga (who at S1 had no knowledge of the three games at all because two of them hadn't happened yet) is not smart. That doesn't make sense. That's like saying a baby is stupid because they don't know that 1+1=2, which they would find out in a few years.

Ergo, Yuber does not remain under Windy's employment forever. He leaves so he can go kill more stuff. This is consistent with Yuber's character. There's nothing we know to really suggest otherwise.

How did Windy try to search Souleater previously? By destroying villages upside down inside out. Was that not killing lots of people? Of course it was. So it would still make sense for Yuber to still work for Windy *if* Windy kept on destroying villages, which we knew as her method of searching things. And do we know that they didn't do it for the past few hundreds of years prior to S1? No, we don't. But if they did, that would still make sense. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that he did work for Windy forever. But it would make sense if he was.

But again, it takes Pesmerga centuries to catch up with someone as easily visible as Neclord. He's dense.

Give me one fact, make sure that it's not speculation or assumption, to show that Pesmerga has been trying to catch up with Neclord for centuries. We found out about him during the Gate Rune War, not during the destruction of Village of Hidden Runes.

Perhaps it's just my fuzzy memory, but doesn't anyone in Ted's town or anything allude to the fact that Yuber came and wrecked house? If they solely mentioned Windy that's my mistake. I just seem to remember Yuber's name coming up there.

From my memory, his name never come up at all. At least not by the townspeople that is. Well they are dead anyway.

The concrete destruction of Yuber's is when he leads battles, whether it be S1 or S2. Anything anyone does under Yuber, regardless of who he works for, would be attributed to their general: Yuber. People, common or otherwise, know of these kind of things.

Yeah, but they didn't know anything about the name of Yuber. Hence, there would be no chance whatsoever for Pesmerga, or anyone, to know about Yuber. People would be like "That Highland General was so mean and bloodthirsty" rather than saying "General Yuber was so mean and bloodthristy".

When Jowy takes Greenhill, even though Fitcher hasn't seen Jowy, even though no one knew who this new general was, he still knows enough to paint an accurate picture of Highland's conquering general.

Accurate enough? Judging by Riou's response of "Jowy... Why are you..." when Pilika ran forward, I'd say that he was still surprised to see Jowy as the Highland General despite already being explained by Fitcher.

I find it hard to believe Pesmerga or anyone else couldn't have tracked Yuber down this way.

Keep in mind that gossip/hearsay about someone is most likely never accurate. Despite Riou's popularity as the new hero or whatever, people were still fooled by Hoi. They even beat up Riou as well. Even Ko, the self-proclaimed fan of Riou, didn't recognize who Riou was. So how would you expect Pesmerga to hear anything from townspeople? They might say that Yuber is an 8 foot man with 20 hands and 10 legs or something.

Whether or not Yoshino, Stallion, whoever were recruited in the same fashion is entirely irrelevent to this discussion.

It is relevant because they prove that what Pesmerga did was totally common and acceptable. Unless of course you consider them all as stupid as well.

The strength Yuber showed though would not be enough to destroy the world, though, and even doubling that (adding in Pesmerga) wouldn't be enough either. So either Yuber is holding back something - which makes good sense, but how much is a little tougher to answer - or he's flat-out not that powerful.

We know that Yuber had a True Rune, did you get to use that True Rune in Suikoden 3? Obviously not. Just from that, we could draw a conclusion that he was indeed holding back.

[Dark Joker]

Do you think that Permerga might get killed or sealed in the World of Emptiness by Yuber between Suikoden II and III

[Zotmaster]

You can't compare Pesmerga to a baby, especially since, well he isn't one. He's been around for centuries, for one thing. My entire thesis is the fact that Pesmerga has a one-track mind, and his whole being is dedicated to the finding and destruction of Yuber. I'm merely saying that this mindlessness causes a deficiency in other areas (pretty much anything non-physical), and then I'm giving you my reasons why.

I never said Yuber never worked for Windy. I just told you why they didn't stick around forever. They raze villages for a while, then after that, it winds down and he's gone, and cooperation ends there.

As for Pesmerga chasing Neclord, I was challenging you. If you remember, you're the one who thought Pesmerga was after Neclord, not me. I suggested Pesmerga happened upon Neclord's place almost by accident. I never presented the idea that Pesmerga intended to meet up with Neclord. So I give you the same challenge: give me one fact, make sure that it's not speculation or assumption, to show that Pesmerga has been trying to catch up with Neclord at all. I don't see a good example.

I'm not playing through the first two games again just to figure out what the townspeople are saying, so for now I'll just assume Yuber wasn't mentioned.

As for Riou being surprised when he sees Jowy, can you blame him? One, he is a child, and two, he's now the enemy of his best friend. I think I would be a little speechless if my best friend was the leader of a war against me. From that scene, I gather it was less a case of Riou not knowing, and more of a case of Riou knowing and not wanting to believe it.

Counterpoint to your gossip theory is the fact that many, many SoDs knew who Riou was without meeting him. Unless they were spying on him all along, they had to have heard about him. But upon meeting Riou, they knew. Some people even tracked Riou down this way (The first one that springs to my mind was the bandit kid who wanted Riou to help Tinto fight off Neclord, and Culgan was also able to successfully track Riou down), so if they can find a kid, I should think others would be able to find the demonic guy with long hair and black armor.

I consider the rest average. It was Pesmerga I was talking about. For trying to find Yuber, and only trying to find Yuber, he doesn't seem very good at it.

As for the Eightfold, I guess time will tell.

[Red Killey]

So I give you the same challenge: give me one fact, make sure that it's not speculation or assumption, to show that Pesmerga has been trying to catch up with Neclord at all.

EDIT: What SARSadmin said just below. I forgot about it until he mentioned it just then.

From that scene, I gather it was less a case of Riou not knowing, and more of a case of Riou knowing and not wanting to believe it.

No chance at all. If I remember correctly, Fitcher only said about a new Highland General who was smart or whatnot. Nothing could indicate it to be Jowy.

Counterpoint to your gossip theory is the fact that many, many SoDs knew who Riou was without meeting him. Unless they were spying on him all along, they had to have heard about him. But upon meeting Riou, they knew.

Who? Hoi didn't even realize that Riou was Riou until he was brought to N.Window. Same thing goes to Ridley who didn't recognize Riou until he saw the Bright Shield Rune. Chaco didn't believe Riou was the leader of Alliance Army even after reading the official letter that he stole. Meg didn't recognize Riou (though Gadget had him in his "database"). Fitcher laughed at Riou if you said that you're the leader. 108 SoDs, just show me 20 SoDs who knew Riou without ever meeting him (or being told who he is) before.

Some people even tracked Riou down this way (The first one that springs to my mind was the bandit kid who wanted Riou to help Tinto fight off Neclord, and Culgan was also able to successfully track Riou down)

You're talking about Koyu. He might be the only one (bar Gadget) who could identify Riou properly (without knowing who Riou was already) out of those 108 SoDs to be honest.

so if they can find a kid, I should think others would be able to find the demonic guy with long hair and black armor.

BIG difference. The kid: Famous and stayed in N.Window. So basically just go to N.Window and look for the kid with red shirt and yellow scarf. The demonic guy: Not famous and unknown location. So we never know his name and we don't know where he is. Just look everywhere.

[Vextor]

Actually, when you recruit Pesmerga at Neclord's Castle, he does say that he thought he may find a trace of Yuber if he came after Neclord.

[Zotmaster]

Good call, SARS. However, that doesn't mean that Pesmerga's logic wasn't still crappy. Again, knowing what we know about Yuber, there really wasn't a reason for any association between Yuber and Neclord once they parted ways with Windy. Killey seemed to confirm this when he said Yuber would have nothing to gain from any association with Neclord. I agree. I offered a reason why Neclord didn't die, which seems like a good enough reason (wanting lots of death over the destruction of True Runes) and left it at that.

For the many SoD's knowing Riou's identity, I was referring to what the characters say when you ask if they'll join you. I remember many times where characters would say something to the effect of "So you're Riou, eh? Yeah, I've heard about you...". I'm not starting a new game just for the sake of a list, but I do remember this happening a lot. Several characters even knew where to go without being told. This happens fairly often. Keep in mind that none of those characters had actually met Riou, but, nonetheless, they knew who he was. And how did they know? Again, short of directly spying on Riou, they must have heard about him from other people. Koyu was the only one other than Culgan that I remember actually calling Riou out, but others followed the line of dialogue I mentioned more or less to a T. And give Koyu some credit, too: for being from as far away as he was, he was still able to identify Riou.

A kid's still a kid, though. Riou has a lot less to distinguish him than Yuber does: after all, people are able to impersonate him successfully (Hoi) or at least be the spitting image of him (Ko). Who's going to be able to impersonate Yuber, honestly? Do you really think people would forget?

But now we're going off topic. My original speculation was that Pesmerga was dense and had a Yuber-first-last-and-only mentality. There really has been nothing sufficient said here to disprove that.

[Red Killey]

Again, knowing what we know about Yuber, there really wasn't a reason for any association between Yuber and Neclord once they parted ways with Windy.

Again, that is what we know, NOT what Pesmerga knew. What we know is *different* than what Pesmerga knew. So it's NOT logical for you to keep on saying that Pesmerga's logic wasn't good by using what we know. If you want to say that his logic wasn't good, then use what he knew to back it up. Put yourself in his shoes and go from there.

I remember many times where characters would say something to the effect of "So you're Riou, eh? Yeah, I've heard about you...".

See what I meant? They only heard about him, they didn't know whatever Riou really looked like. What made most of them realize that it was Riou was the fact that either 1) Riou introduced himself [ex: Humphrey and Futch's case] or 2) They were introduced by someone they trust [ex: Whole SME's case because Sheena introduced Riou to them] or 3) They saw him earlier before [ex: Miklotov and Camus' case in Greenhill-Matilda border]. Very rarely they were the one who approached Riou and say "Hey, you're Riou, the hero of Jowston army!" Probably only Max (and Koyu) did such thing.

I never argued whether the SoDs know Riou or not. I was saying that they didn't know how he looked like (keyword: look like). Which in the end supported the idea for Pesmerga to not able to hear about Yuber.

One further supporting idea of people not really being scared of Yuber. It's a fact that when Pesmerga's character art being created, he was created to look exactly like Yuber (with the exception of the hair). If people were so scared of Yuber, they would be scared of Pesmerga, who looked exactly the same (or at the least, very similar) as Yuber. So how could you expect him to ask around about Yuber?

And give Koyu some credit, too: for being from as far away as he was, he was still able to identify Riou.

How hard is it to find a kid wearing red shirt and yellow scarf in N.Window? No one wore that other than him in that town (until Hoi arrived which was definitely way after Koyu's appearance).

after all, people are able to impersonate him successfully (Hoi)

Which further proves my point of townspeople's judgment cannot be trusted. Hoi looked nothing like Riou, with the exception of the clothes, and they are fooled. They even beat up Riou as well. So how could you trust such people? They could describe Yuber as a 2,000 pound monster wearing black armor.

or at least be the spitting image of him (Ko).

Spliting image? Name one person who was fooled by Ko's splitting image of Riou. No one. These people basically only know what Riou wore, not what he really looked like.

Who's going to be able to impersonate Yuber, honestly? Do you really think people would forget?

I don't think people would forget, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't change his description by the time the information was received by Pesmerga. Again, information kept on changing when it's from mouth to mouth like that.

My original speculation was that Pesmerga was dense and had a Yuber-first-last-and-only mentality. There really has been nothing sufficient said here to disprove that.

Which has been proven wrong by the fact that Pesmerga was willing to go find Neclord first to find Yuber. While I agree that Yuber was still his main target, that doesn't mean that Pesmerga had the Yuber-first-last-and-only mentality.

[Zotmaster]

Killey, Pesmerga going to Neclord proves nothing about a good thought process. You challenged me to go into Pesmerga's shoes like I did with Yuber's, however, so sure, I will. I will treat him like a person in this example, because while we've seen that Pesmerga is seemingly - not - human, we've seen nothing to imply that his thought process will be entirely different from that of a human's. Humans can be narrow-minded, after all.

I am looking for someone who is freakishly powerful and almost a mirror image of myself.

From an intuitive mind angle, the first thing I do is open my ears and see if I can pick up on anything relating to Yuber. I am assuming that despite the fact that I am dressed like an outsider and I don't make any noise while I walk - quoting Richmond - I am in an age where people walk with their swords on their belts, so I figure that some might give me a wide berth, but so long as I don't start any trouble, I'll be just fine. Besides, should it come to that, I'm confident in my own abilities. I ask the people for anything related to a Black Knight, mass destruction - maybe of villages, maybe of cities, or maybe just a large group of people - or anything to that effect. Assuming the forces of chaos have not been idle since last I saw Yuber, I'd wager someone has heard about a city being destroyed. If anyone had seen Yuber, I'm fairly certain they would remember what he looked like, which would probably be to my detriment, since we resemble each other. Nobody's seen him, or at least nobody alive. But I hear of a village that has been utterly annihilated. I travel there, and perhaps I find nothing. If the townspeople are all dead, I resume my search and take note of the fact that I am getting closer to a trail. Perhaps an investigation of several towns proves equally fruitless, but with each one, I am getting closer to finding him. Somewhere along the lines, I find out about Windy, Neclord, and perhaps Yuber. At this point, I piece it together. Perhaps I put the three of them all together, perhaps not. At this point, I perhaps question Neclord, but depending on my abilities - ie, am I powerful enough to destroy Neclord with no help? - I go for the Star Dragon Sword first. At this point, the sword has been idle for quite some time. I am powerful enough to subdue the sword should it try to resist me. I take it. I find out where Neclord lives and do whatever it takes to get him to talk, or simply kill him if he doesn't. I resume my search from there. In essence: a systematic investigation of towns and cities. In this age, there are towns, but not an infinite number.

Now, probably your first instinct is to say "hey, he just proved my whole point that Pesmerga's pretty darn sharp." Here is why he isn't.

Two hundred years. Pesmerga sure took his time coming back into the picture. Unless his last sighting of Yuber was on the other side of the known universe, it certainly wouldn't have taken him that long to get back. The follow-up to this is the fact that Yuber, Windy, and Neclord haven't had any association with each other over this time. Simply put, if Pesmerga had started looking immediately, he would have gotten close relatively fast. Since there haven't been village razings over the years, the trail would have gone cold over that time, meaning Pesmerga would not have been able to follow it. Or, failing that, Pesmerga would never have been able to link Neclord, Yuber, and Windy all together since the three had parted ways by then. In other words, if villages were still being destroyed, it would have been Windy's doing, and Windy's alone. In short, Neclord never would have entered the picture as a possible link to Yuber.

I established, and you agreed with, the fact that if Yuber had any association with Neclord after that, Yuber would have been out to kill Neclord. Therefore, the only plausible explanation for Pesmerga still persuing Neclord comes from his inability to find Yuber by any other means. However, had he investigated, he would have reached them either while they were still together or shortly thereafter, which means Neclord might have had some tidbit of knowledge that Pesmerga could have used (assuming Pesmerga could have coaxed it out of Neclord, which seems unlikely). But 200 years later, the trail has long gone cold, Neclord doesn't raze villages anymore, and therefore has nothing to offer Pesmerga anyway. It's also worth pointing out that Pesmerga still can't manage to get to Neclord in time. Pesmerga knows Neclord and Yuber associated at one point in time, so even though it's 200 years later, it's the only place he can go because he knows nothing else. But, alas, he's too late. If he were the investigative type, he'd have moved on. But he isn't. He just waits and waits and Tir just happens, by indisputable dumb luck, to run into him. Pesmerga follows. Where else does he know to go?

Now, the challenge: explain to me why it was good reasoning for Pesmerga to be waiting in the Cave of the Wind in Suikoden 2 after Neclord was already dead - which he probably would have known had he investigated, but even if he didn't it doesn't really matter - and the Star Dragon Sword is gone.

[Vextor]

The follow-up to this is the fact that Yuber, Windy, and Neclord haven't had any association with each other over this time. Simply put, if Pesmerga had started looking immediately, he would have gotten close relatively fast. Since there haven't been village razings over the years, the trail would have gone cold over that time, meaning Pesmerga would not have been able to follow it. Or, failing that, Pesmerga would never have been able to link Neclord, Yuber, and Windy all together since the three had parted ways by then. In other words, if villages were still being destroyed, it would have been Windy's doing, and Windy's alone. In short, Neclord never would have entered the picture as a possible link to Yuber.

This is a pretty huge assumption mind you, there's no background info available in any pubication that states the above as fact. It's more likely that Yuber, Neclord, and Windy kept a loose association over the centuries, as Neclord was named a magistrate of the Lorimar Region, and Yuber has always been a mysterious general serving under Windy.

Neclord doesn't raze villages anymore, and therefore has nothing to offer Pesmerga anyway.

Neclord has razed plenty of villages in recent history, such as North Window and Lorimar.

Pesmerga would never have been able to link Neclord, Yuber, and Windy all together since the three had parted ways by then.

Do you have some sort of source you are basing this upon? The three were together 300 years ago, and they're still associated during the Gate Rune Wars. It's natural to assume that the three have been at least in speaking terms during the 300 years in between. It's hard to imagine thet they have not even met once or twice during that time--especially Yuber--who tends to stick with whomever that summoned him.

In other words, if villages were still being destroyed, it would have been Windy's doing, and Windy's alone.

How are you sure of this? The Lycanthrope's village was destroyed by Windy not so far back, but it would be entirely possible for Yuber and Neclord to have been there as well. The two have no alibi to prove otherwise.

[Red Killey]

I established, and you agreed with, the fact that if Yuber had any association with Neclord after that, Yuber would have been out to kill Neclord.

Just for the record, I never said that I agreed of such thing. Please don't assume that I agree when I don't. I'll reply in more detail later on because I really have to go now.

[Zotmaster]

Neclord has razed plenty of villages in recent history, such as North Window and Lorimar.

Two villages in 300 years. And those came at the end of those 300 years. I think my generalization is a little more accurate than yours.

The Lycanthrope's village was destroyed by Windy not so far back, but it would be entirely possible for Yuber and Neclord to have been there as well. The two have no alibi to prove otherwise.

There's no alibi to prove they were there. However, there are reasons why they wouldn't have been there; namely, their agendas. What reason would they have had to come back? Sure, they were chummy way back when, but 300 years does not continuity make. Neclord would better serve his agenda - zombies and brides - better on his own, and Yuber would serve his agenda better if he were separate from those two as well. Neclord has his castle where he does his business, and Yuber finds employment in a war to serve his purpose. This is consistent with what we know of their personalities and agendas. There hasn't been anything said on here against either that I remember so far.

I'd like to remind the two of you that this is a theory board, and neither of you have really done anything to disagree with my base reasoning. I told you that it was against Yuber's agenda to be there, as I did with Neclord. I established that agenda, and neither of you have had anything to say about that. I'll issue a challenge again: you say to prove why they wouldn't be there. I did that. Prove to me why they would be there.

It's hard to imagine thet they have not even met once or twice during that time--especially Yuber--who tends to stick with whomever that summoned him.

When and where? He stuck around with Windy for an undetermined amount of time. 300 years later, we hear of him under the employment of the Scarlet Moon Empire, where he did not stay long. He came after the war started - that's what I remember - and he left before it ended. Same with the Dunan Wars. He came late and left early. He wasn't around Luc very long either. That war, too, didn't last very long if memory serves. A year is not a very long time for a human, much less an immortal (based on the immortality the Rune gives him). I don't think this is a great indication of Yuber sticking around with anyone.

Killey, how much of your old posts were/have been edited? I regret not quoting something you said earlier, and now I can't seem to find it.

However, you did say this a little while back:

You said it yourself that he had nothing to gain by working with Neclord anymore, so why not kill him right there and then?

You asked and I pulled up a quote of something I'd said earlier as my answer. After that, you didn't go back to the quote or the answer, and between that and the quote that I cannot find now, I was under the impression that you agreed or at least didn't have a further question to ask. I really do remember a more concrete quote though...

And on a side note, I find it a little odd that when you've prompted me to respond to something, I have, but when I've done the same, you haven't answered in kind. To make sure the wrong conclusion is not drawn, that is not a personal attack in any way shape or form, because I have nothing against either of you. I am curious if it is just innocent oversight or if you just have nothing to support the claims.

[Vextor]

Two villages in 300 years. And those came at the end of those 300 years. I think my generalization is a little more accurate than yours.

Incorrect, because you said that Neclord didn't raze any villages, which is not true. I just wanted to correct that.

There's no alibi to prove they were there. However, there are reasons why they wouldn't have been there; namely, their agendas. What reason would they have had to come back? Sure, they were chummy way back when, but 300 years does not continuity make. Neclord would better serve his agenda - zombies and brides - better on his own, and Yuber would serve his agenda better if he were separate from those two as well.

I don't think Neclord has any agenda per se. Neclord seems to simply like destroying things and taking brides--he seems to have no real "agenda" besides living the way he wants. He destroyed Northwindow on a whim, according to sources. Destroying the village of Lycanthropes seems to fall well within what he may take pleasure. Yuber's broad agenda is to cause Chaos, so razing villages with Windy seems to fit his agenda pretty well.

Neclord has his castle where he does his business, and Yuber finds employment in a war to serve his purpose. This is consistent with what we know of their personalities and agendas. There hasn't been anything said on here against either that I remember so far.

Neclord's castle in Suikoden 1 was built only after he was assigned as Magistrate of Lorimar, which happened only within a few years of the onset of the Toran Liberation War.

I'd like to remind the two of you that this is a theory board, and neither of you have really done anything to disagree with my base reasoning. I told you that it was against Yuber's agenda to be there, as I did with Neclord. I established that agenda, and neither of you have had anything to say about that. I'll issue a challenge again: you say to prove why they wouldn't be there. I did that. Prove to me why they would be there.

Uhhh, what? I'm not really interested in the theory or whatever, I'm just pointing out your factual errors.

When and where? He stuck around with Windy for an undetermined amount of time. 300 years later, we hear of him under the employment of the Scarlet Moon Empire, where he did not stay long. He came after the war started - that's what I remember - and he left before it ended.

We actually don't know when exactly Yuber started serving in the Scarlet Moon Empire. He is suddenly the captain of the royal guards when you attack Gregminster. Considering the fact that the said position has been vacant since Kraze was fired by Windy, it's most likely that Yuber has been the captain of the royal guards since then. That means he was likely involved in a public capacity for about two years.

Same with the Dunan Wars. He came late and left early.

What exactly is "late" and "early?" His first appearance is around half-way into the game (hardly "late"), and he leaves at the final battle. Hardly "early."

He wasn't around Luc very long either. That war, too, didn't last very long if memory serves. A year is not a very long time for a human, much less an immortal (based on the immortality the Rune gives him). I don't think this is a great indication of Yuber sticking around with anyone.

These examples don't really help because in all cases, the forces Yuber was summoned by have been wiped out--a summoned being will surely go elsewhere if their master is defeated. In the case of Windy, she controlled Yuber 300 years ago, and also during the Gate Rune Wars--she was never "defeated" during that 300 years span. Thus, it's most likely that she maintained that control during the 300 years.

[Red Killey]

Two hundred years. Pesmerga sure took his time coming back into the picture. Unless his last sighting of Yuber was on the other side of the known universe, it certainly wouldn't have taken him that long to get back.

Give me one fact where it said that Pesmerga took two hundred years before finally meeting Yuber or Neclord (meaning: give me a fact that showed when Pesmerga started pursuing Yuber or Neclord, and give me a fact that they never met before during those hundreds of years). We simply don't know what happened between the event of Village of Hidden Runes destruction until Gate Rune War. We know that Pesmerga was looking for Yuber during Gate Rune War, but we don't know whether they've crossed path before or not. Who knows if the previous meeting was a year earlier but Yuber just ran away? Who knows if they've crossed path hundreds of times before and always resulted in Yuber running away so Pesmerga had to catch up yet again? (like how Clive was forced to go from one place to another to catch up with Elza, difference is Yuber's teleportation ability made it harder to guess where he'd be). We don't know.

The next big chunk of the paragraph is already commented by SARSadmin. So no need to repeat his request (which is the same as mine) of facts to back up your assumptions.

But what I do want to comment is that your theory seems to be based on your assumption (of Neclord-Yuber-Windy had no relationship anymore) which is unfortunately for you, not a fact. And we all know that you can't make a good theory if it's supported by another theory.

Now, the challenge: explain to me why it was good reasoning for Pesmerga to be waiting in the Cave of the Wind in Suikoden 2 after Neclord was already dead - which he probably would have known had he investigated, but even if he didn't it doesn't really matter - and the Star Dragon Sword is gone.

Neclord's attack in Tinto happened after Luca's death (let's say another week or two after that) and followed by Neclord's own death. But the key here is the townspeople. No other area than Tinto mentioned about Neclord at all. So since Pesmerga was around S.Window area, the people there didn't mention anything about Neclord in Tinto at all, let alone knowing that he died there already. All they knew was Neclord's re-appearance in N.Window that happened a few months prior to this. They might even thought that he was dead already because N.Window was turned into a town/castle after that. With this information, Pesmerga knew that whoever killed/defeated Neclord needed SDS to do it. So he came to Cave of Wind with the hope of meeting those who used SDS when they returned it to there again. Using his experience in Gate Rune War, he knew that SDS couldn't shut his mouth up. So it would be logical to say that one who used SDS wouldn't stand to use it forever and in the end would return it to Cave of Wind.

You might think that he's stupid for not just going straight to N.Window and ask around there. But you have to keep in mind that Pesmerga isn't the type of guy who beg for help. Not to mention that no townspeople really knew who exactly took the SDS. Instead, he used his brain to make it sound as if Riou was the one needing his help instead of the other way around by staying there.

Killey, how much of your old posts were/have been edited? I regret not quoting something you said earlier, and now I can't seem to find it.

If you look at a bit above my signature on every posts, it would say how many times and when I edited my post if the post is edited. The only one being edited was the three posts before this one. That post was edited 2 good hours before your reply. Meaning that what you read by then would've been the edited version anyway. And whenever I edit my post, I try to use "EDIT:" to notify which part I edited unless it's just typo. The only thing I edited was only my comment to SARSadmin's post about Pesmerga trying to find Neclord to link with Yuber. So please don't say that I edited my posts to change stuff that is related to me agreeing to your theory of Yuber.

You asked and I pulled up a quote of something I'd said earlier as my answer. After that, you didn't go back to the quote or the answer, and between that and the quote that I cannot find now, I was under the impression that you agreed or at least didn't have a further question to ask. I really do remember a more concrete quote though...

Again, not true because I only edited one of my posts once. I can't modify the edited date/time at all. Just because I didn't ask further question doesn't mean that I agree with you. I left it there because I was getting too tired to go back and forth about the same thing over and over again.

But since you mentioned it again and again. I'll prove it to you why it made sense to think that Yuber still worked with Neclord by using your own theory of Yuber's two main goals that you've used over and over again. Basically you believed that Yuber's first and more important goal was to create chaos. Then his second and less important goal was to destroy True Runes and their bearers. Using your own theory, it means that Yuber would only do #2, when he couldn't do #1. I'll make it point by point to make it easier to understand.

Step 1. Did Yuber try to destroy any True Rune or any bearer during the past 200-300 years? Not that we know of. So it's proven by fact that he didn't do #2, which means that he was doing #1 (which was creating chaos by destroying villages or whatever).

Step 2. Has it ever been known that Yuber worked alone? Answer is again, Not that we know of. Meaning that he had always been employed/summoned/whatever by someone.

Step 3. Who was the last employer of Yuber before Gate Rune War? Windy. Meaning that since we have no idea who employed Yuber other than Windy prior to Gate Rune War, it would be logical to assume that she was the only employer so far.

Step 4. Last question, who was the third person in their "team"? Neclord. So if you piece all of them together, it would make sense to think that Neclord still worked together with Yuber.

And on a side note, I find it a little odd that when you've prompted me to respond to something, I have, but when I've done the same, you haven't answered in kind. To make sure the wrong conclusion is not drawn, that is not a personal attack in any way shape or form, because I have nothing against either of you. I am curious if it is just innocent oversight or if you just have nothing to support the claims.

Okay, let's see what had happened so far.

fact #1: You challenge me to provide fact about Pesmerga trying to find Neclord. I replied, and SARSadmin replied as well.

Fact #2: Before that challenge, I asked you to provide a fact that showed Pesmerga has been trying to catch up with Neclord for hundreds of years. Did you reply to that? No. You only challenged me back, which I properly replied with fact #1 up there.

Fact #3: I asked you to name 20 SoDs that able to recognize Riou without being introduced or Riou introducing himself or saw him before. Did you mention 20 names? No. Instead, you changed your point by saying that you only meant that they knew who Riou was when he said that he was Riou (which wasn't what I asked for).

Fact #4: I asked you to name just one person who was fooled by Ko's so called splitting image of Riou. Did you name one person? Not at all.

So keep your facts straight before saying that I don't answer your questions. The last challenge wasn't answered yet because as I mentioned earlier, I didn't have time (I live in Australia and when I posted that, it was around 8 AM while my class started at 8.30 AM).

[Zotmaster]

Incorrect, because you said that Neclord didn't raze any villages, which is not true. I just wanted to correct that.

You yourself quoted me in a previous post as saying this:

Neclord doesn't raze villages anymore.

(italics mine)

That's a big difference. Never once did I say he never razed a village, so kindly do not imply that I did.

I don't think Neclord has any agenda per se. Neclord seems to simply like destroying things and taking brides--he seems to have no real "agenda" besides living the way he wants.

While technically still an agenda, that is the only really good angle I've heard so far that's different what I've said. You go on to give a reason for that, which is good. I would still say that's an agenda though, it's just a very slight differentiation of what I suggested.

Neclord's castle in Suikoden 1 was built only after he was assigned as Magistrate of Lorimar, which happened only within a few years of the onset of the Toran Liberation War.

Would you mind giving me a link to that or anything else that can give similar information?

Considering the fact that the said position has been vacant since Kraze was fired by Windy, it's most likely that Yuber has been the captain of the royal guards since then. That means he was likely involved in a public capacity for about two years.

Same thing. I am unaware of the exact timeline of the first game. I remember one instance of the story where a few months pass without you doing anything, but I can't account for the rest of it.

What exactly is "late" and "early?" His first appearance is around half-way into the game (hardly "late"), and he leaves at the final battle. Hardly "early."

Technically incorrect. Yuber doesn't make his first appearance until after the war has already broke out (which is "coming late") and you finish dealing with him before you finish wiping out the rest of the Highland Army, since you can use Pesmerga in strategy battles and you yourself established in another topic that you cannot bring Pesmerga to meet Yuber at any point in the story, short of a glitch (which is "leaving early").

These examples don't really help because in all cases, the forces Yuber was summoned by have been wiped out--a summoned being will surely go elsewhere if their master is defeated. In the case of Windy, she controlled Yuber 300 years ago, and also during the Gate Rune Wars--she was never "defeated" during that 300 years span. Thus, it's most likely that she maintained that control during the 300 years.

That's not entirely true, either. Yuber leaves before those who summoned him are defeated. Windy isn't vanquished until after the final battle, and Yuber is long gone before then. Unless Luca summoned Yuber, Yuber left before whoever summoned him did once again, in Suikoden 2. (I'm assuming it had to be Jowy or Leon, correct me if I'm wrong) Again, in Suikoden 3, even though I figure Yuber knew Luc would lose, he nonetheless took off before idea became reality, as did Albert. Only Sarah stuck around (albeit for obvious reasons).

Give me one fact where it said that Pesmerga took two hundred years before finally meeting Yuber or Neclord (meaning: give me a fact that showed when Pesmerga started pursuing Yuber or Neclord, and give me a fact that they never met before during those hundreds of years). We simply don't know what happened between the event of Village of Hidden Runes destruction until Gate Rune War. We know that Pesmerga was looking for Yuber during Gate Rune War, but we don't know whether they've crossed path before or not. Who knows if the previous meeting was a year earlier but Yuber just ran away? Who knows if they've crossed path hundreds of times before and always resulted in Yuber running away so Pesmerga had to catch up yet again?

The way I've formulated my theory is the way you do math problems: plug in what you know to solve for what you don't.

Regarding Yuber and Pesmerga's history, this is what we know:

1. Pesmerga is pursuing Yuber for an unknown reason. Both times Pesmerga joins up with the main character, it is for no other known reason than to pursue Yuber. He says as much. We never see any indication that he has done, or is interested in doing, anything else.

2. Pesmerga and Yuber have crossed swords, for certain, once. The duration and exact date are unknown; however, the outcome was, without a doubt, inconclusive (as in, there was no clear winner or loser).

Because we only know of one certain encounter, we must assume that they have only crossed swords that one time, which is why we can't ask if they have hundreds of times as you suggest. There's nothing to even suggest that idea.

Because we have only seen Pesmerga pursue Yuber at the expense of all other things, we have to assume he's been doing it all along. We have never seen him do anything else. Obviously, Pesmerga has been around for at least a few hundred years since it has been established that the two have a past.

Now, we've established that Pesmerga has been around a few hundred years, has always pursued Yuber, and they've met, for sure, exactly once. Result? No matter where you place that one encounter on the Suikoden timeline, Pesmerga has been chasing Yuber for hundreds of years without what one might call success.

With this information, Pesmerga knew that whoever killed/defeated Neclord needed SDS to do it. So he came to Cave of Wind with the hope of meeting those who used SDS when they returned it to there again. Using his experience in Gate Rune War, he knew that SDS couldn't shut his mouth up.

First, it is my opinion that if Pesmerga were smart and wanted to link up with the SDS, he would have, the second time around, sought the person who last held the SDS - Viktor - instead of waiting around in the cave. It makes sense: who would be the most likely to know what happened to the sword than the last person who was known to use it? It's safe to assume that Pesmerga knew Viktor had it in Suikoden 1.

So it would be logical to say that one who used SDS wouldn't stand to use it forever and in the end would return it to Cave of Wind.

I disagree completely.

Here is what we know that is relevant to the SDS that is also relevant to this discussion:

1. The only people who have, for sure, wielded it, were Viktor and Edge. Tessai from Suikoden 2 knows about the SDS, but we don't know of anyone who has ever wielded it other than Viktor and Edge.

2. The sword has a condescending personality and a nasty temper. Any sign of disrespect is grounds for the sword erupting in fury and possibly attacking the offender (read: Suikoden 2).

3. The sword has been found in two different places: The Caves of the Past (Suikoden 1) and the Cave of the Wind (Suikoden 2). If these are the same places, correct me later.

4. Some time after the events of Suikoden 2, Viktor gave the sword to Edge. He then went on an adventure with Flik. Edge has kept the sword ever since.

Now, to go back to your quote.

You make a very broad assumption that everyone gets sick of the Star Dragon Sword and returns it to the Cave of the Wind. There seems to be an implication that several people have used it, but since you don't explicitly say it, I'll ignore that. (Fact #1)

Viktor was obviously very annoyed by the sword, and the feeling was mutual. The sword tried offing Viktor, but failed. (Fact #2) Based on the sword's personality and feelings of superiority, there is no reason to believe that the sword was holding back: it did, after all, try to kill. Did you notice that after the sword lost, while it may have complained about everything - including, but not limited to, the way Viktor calls the sword a thing, and the fact that Viktor "swings me too hard" - it never again tried to attack Viktor? My guess is the sword knew it couldn't defeat Viktor, unless the sword was suddenly imbued with feelings of respect. Sure, Viktor couldn't stand the sword for long, but he did not return it to the Cave of the Wind either time, unless The Caves of the Past and the Cave of the Wind are one and the same, in which case he returned it to its spot exactly once. (Fact #3)

The second time, he gave it to Edge. (Fact #4) Now, there is no reason to believe that the sword considered itself anything but superior to Edge (Fact #2). This can be surmised from Kidd when Kidd says: "He travels with his Star Dragon Sword. He's strong and composed. He pays no attention to his Sword's nasty comments." Based on the sword's relationship with Viktor, as well as what we know of Edge, the only explanation we can give is that Edge simply does not give the sword grief, making him a willing servant of the sword (I will get back to that shortly). Is Edge sick of the sword? Perhaps. We honestly don't know. However, for argument's sake, assume he is. That would make you two-for-two as far as people getting sick of the sword goes.

However, this is key. Edge does not return the sword. Two sources confirm this.

First, we turn to Kidd again: "He claims to be 'keeping the Star Dragon Sword for someone important.' I wonder who that person might be?" Notice that Edge never returns the sword to its resting place.

Secondly, we turn to what the game tells us about Edge in the ending: "To defeat a foe sought by the Star Dragon Sword, he goes on a voyage to the south." He's obeying the sword. The sword dictates, and Edge obeys.

Conclusion: he isn't going to return it, whether or not he's sick of it.

So please don't say that I edited my posts to change stuff that is related to me agreeing to your theory of Yuber.

I never said that. I was just saying it was unfortunate timing. How would you know that I wanted to use a certain thing you said, unless I had told you prior, which both of us can confirm that I did not. The reason I asked was because if it was only one post, I was going to ask you if you still had the old version of it so I could look at it again.

Step 2. Has it ever been known that Yuber worked alone? Answer is again, Not that we know of. Meaning that he had always been employed/summoned/whatever by someone.

Not true. I turn to Suikoden 3's ending:

"There's a rumor he's been seen amongst the deformed creatures that sprung forth from the crumbled ruins."

This casts enough doubt on your theory that it can't just be assumed to be true. Note that he's not known to be under anyone's wing at this point. Since Luc's dead and he was still at the ruins, he was not summoned again. This means Yuber has no leader, but he's still around, this time solo. This means Yuber may have worked alone at any point in Suikoden's history. Which means it's entirely possible that he operated without Windy, Neclord, or anyone else in the 300 years between when the three of them stopped working all together, and the start of Suikoden 1. While inconclusive, this is a plausible idea. It would fit with Yuber's personality, unless he absolutely needs to have someone ordering him around to cause chaos, which seems unlikely.

Also, who started this rumor? While inconclusive, it may very well have been the chatter of normal people. Ordinary people may have known what was going on all along.

I asked you to name 20 SoDs that able to recognize Riou without being introduced or Riou introducing himself or saw him before.

(italics mine)

I was under the impression you just asked for 20 SoDs who were able to identify Riou at all. If you said that before in those words, I missed it. I apologize.

So keep your facts straight before saying that I don't answer your questions. The last challenge wasn't answered yet because as I mentioned earlier, I didn't have time (I live in Australia and when I posted that, it was around 8 AM while my class started at 8.30 AM).

You sound offended. I am referring to posts in the past, but I repeat that once again I'm not trying to make a personal attack. I'm sorry, again, if it's interpreted as such.

[Red Killey]

Neclord doesn't raze villages anymore.

(italics mine)

That's a big difference. Never once did I say he never razed a village, so kindly do not imply that I did.

Actually from the literal point of view you're still wrong. You said that he didn't raze villages anymore (which referred to the time after Village of Hidden Runes destruction). It was clearly wrong because Neclord did raze more villages after that.

1. Pesmerga is pursuing Yuber for an unknown reason. Both times Pesmerga joins up with the main character, it is for no other known reason than to pursue Yuber. He says as much. We never see any indication that he has done, or is interested in doing, anything else.

You're being too stubborn with your speculation on the last sentence. It has been proven by the fact that Pesmerga was willing to find Neclord first to find Yuber. Also, if I want to be picky, he was willing to help Tir and Riou in a war that wasn't even his business at all. Granted, it might help him find Yuber, but it still showed that he didn't mind doing anything else as well. So please do not repeat again in the future saying that he never did anything else than pursuing Yuber. Pursuing Yuber is his main agenda, not the only thing that he ever did.

Because we only know of one certain encounter, we must assume that they have only crossed swords that one time, which is why we can't ask if they have hundreds of times as you suggest. There's nothing to even suggest that idea.

While you're right that there is nothing to even suggest that any meetings occurred between Pesmerga and Yuber, it only proved your idea wrong. In Suikoden II, it was never implied whatsoever that Pesmerga had met Yuber in Gregminster. In fact, it was never implied at all in the game that the two ever crossed path in Gregminster. But it was revealed in other publication (not sure whether it was Shinsyos or Encyclopedia or Novel or whatever). That proves my point that even without any indication whatsoever, it's possible to say that they've met before (which they did at least once, we just don't know about others if any). That's why it's plausible to say that they might have met before Gate Rune War.

Because we have only seen Pesmerga pursue Yuber at the expense of all other things, we have to assume he's been doing it all along. We have never seen him do anything else.

Read the two paragraph above for the reply about the same thing.

No matter where you place that one encounter on the Suikoden timeline, Pesmerga has been chasing Yuber for hundreds of years without what one might call success.

Read the two paragraph above for the reply on the same thing.

First, it is my opinion that if Pesmerga were smart and wanted to link up with the SDS, he would have, the second time around, sought the person who last held the SDS - Viktor - instead of waiting around in the cave.

So you think he'd be smarter to try to find Viktor, who could be anywhere in Suikoden world, and who could as well have no idea whatsoever about what happened to SDS at that moment (in case of someone else taking it and not him)? It's definitely better to wait and take the real information for sure.

It's safe to assume that Pesmerga knew Viktor had it in Suikoden 1.

Exactly why it doesn't make sense to ask him. Pesmerga knew that Viktor didn't like SDS, and most likely wouldn't want to be associated with that sword ever again. Since Pesmerga, in my opinion, isn't dumb, he came to the conclusion that Viktor wouldn't have used it again (though Pesmerga was proven wrong, the way he thinks was still logical) and be better to wait there so that whoever took SDS would be the one he asked the question to.

Here is what we know that is relevant to the SDS that is also relevant to this discussion:

1. The only people who have, for sure, wielded it, were Viktor and Edge. Tessai from Suikoden 2 knows about the SDS, but we don't know of anyone who has ever wielded it other than Viktor and Edge.

Please keep out the S3 info out of the discussion. It's not relevant because we're talking about the timeline up to Dunan Unification War. Since Pesmerga isn't a fortune teller, he couldn't see the future and know that Edge would be wielding the SDS as well.

2. The sword has a condescending personality and a nasty temper. Any sign of disrespect is grounds for the sword erupting in fury and possibly attacking the offender (read: Suikoden 2).

I agree on this.

3. The sword has been found in two different places: The Caves of the Past (Suikoden 1) and the Cave of the Wind (Suikoden 2).

Agreed.

4. Some time after the events of Suikoden 2, Viktor gave the sword to Edge. He then went on an adventure with Flik. Edge has kept the sword ever since.

Not relevant for this particular issue due to the nature of S3 being the future of S2.

You make a very broad assumption that everyone gets sick of the Star Dragon Sword and returns it to the Cave of the Wind.

I never said such thing. What I said was, based on Pesmerga's experience in Gate Rune War (about Viktor-SDS bickering each other all the time and how SDS couldn't shut his mouth), it would be logical to assume that whoever used SDS in S2 wouldn't stand SDS's talking as well. Hence, they would return it to Cave of Wind. I never said that everyone is sick of it.

There seems to be an implication that several people have used it, but since you don't explicitly say it, I'll ignore that. (Fact #1)

No implication intended at all. The word "they" was used simply because whoever took SDS could be either male or female. It's a common way when implying to such thing by using the word "they" even though I was referring to one person only.

Viktor was obviously very annoyed by the sword, and the feeling was mutual. The sword tried offing Viktor, but failed. (Fact #2) Based on the sword's personality and feelings of superiority, there is no reason to believe that the sword was holding back: it did, after all, try to kill.

Point blank wrong. It was holding back for sure. Proven if you lose that battle, which you could. If you lose, you don't die and get the Game Over screen at all. Instead you continued the story as if everything is well. So it clearly showed that SDS didn't really try to kill Viktor. Angry and frustrated maybe, but not trying to kill him.

Did you notice that after the sword lost, while it may have complained about everything - including, but not limited to, the way Viktor calls the sword a thing, and the fact that Viktor "swings me too hard" - it never again tried to attack Viktor?

Point blank wrong. SDS did try to attack Viktor again in Kuskus's blacksmith shop. It had to be calmed by Tessai so that it didn't attack Viktor.

My guess is the sword knew it couldn't defeat Viktor

Point blank wrong. A True Rune like SDS should be able to defeat Viktor, who is for sure not the best swordsman in Suikoden world.

Sure, Viktor couldn't stand the sword for long, but he did not return it to the Cave of the Wind either time, unless The Caves of the Past and the Cave of the Wind are one and the same, in which case he returned it to its spot exactly once. (Fact #3)

Those two are clearly different places. But it's still logical to think that someone would return the sword there because Pesmerga didn't know who took it.

The second time, he gave it to Edge. (Fact #4) Now, there is no reason to believe that the sword considered itself anything but superior to Edge (Fact #2). This can be surmised from Kidd when Kidd says: "He travels with his Star Dragon Sword. He's strong and composed. He pays no attention to his Sword's nasty comments." Based on the sword's relationship with Viktor, as well as what we know of Edge, the only explanation we can give is that Edge simply does not give the sword grief, making him a willing servant of the sword (I will get back to that shortly). Is Edge sick of the sword? Perhaps. We honestly don't know. However, for argument's sake, assume he is. That would make you two-for-two as far as people getting sick of the sword goes.

However, this is key. Edge does not return the sword. Two sources confirm this.

First, we turn to Kidd again: "He claims to be 'keeping the Star Dragon Sword for someone important.' I wonder who that person might be?" Notice that Edge never returns the sword to its resting place.

Secondly, we turn to what the game tells us about Edge in the ending: "To defeat a foe sought by the Star Dragon Sword, he goes on a voyage to the south." He's obeying the sword. The sword dictates, and Edge obeys.

Conclusion: he isn't going to return it, whether or not he's sick of it.

All irrelevant because of S3 happening in the future of S2. I've told you before, don't use your knowledge of the three games to say that Pesmerga was dense. Use only the relevant info during the timeline. Meaning, if you're talking about Pesmerga's action in S1, don't use S2 and S3. If you're talking about Pesmerga's action in S2, don't use S3.

The reason I asked was because if it was only one post, I was going to ask you if you still had the old version of it so I could look at it again.

And I've told you that the only thing that I edited was the response to SARSadmin's post. Clearly that part had nothing to do with your Yuber theory. So such quote that you claimed to be "missing", never existed in the first place.

Not true. I turn to Suikoden 3's ending:

"There's a rumor he's been seen amongst the deformed creatures that sprung forth from the crumbled ruins."

Again, irrelevant due to the timeline. Please please please refrain from using S3 info when we're talking about the time before S3 occurred. But I'll comment on it none the less (though it must be clear that it is irrelevant to the main idea).

Note that he's not known to be under anyone's wing at this point.

Got proof? First of all, it's only a rumor, so in no way it was a confirmed fact. Second of all, he was seen among the deformed creatures, which made it possible that the deformed creature was also summoned with him by someone. So yeah, unless you give me a fact that showed Yuber was indeed working alone by that time, it's just a useless theory with no back up at all.

Since Luc's dead and he was still at the ruins, he was not summoned again. This means Yuber has no leader, but he's still around, this time solo.

Fact: Yuber was summoned in S3 by Albert Silverberg, not by Luc. Did Albert die? No. So for all we know, Yuber could be there because of Albert's order/plan/whatever.

This means Yuber may have worked alone at any point in Suikoden's history. Which means it's entirely possible that he operated without Windy, Neclord, or anyone else in the 300 years between when the three of them stopped working all together, and the start of Suikoden 1. While inconclusive, this is a plausible idea. It would fit with Yuber's personality, unless he absolutely needs to have someone ordering him around to cause chaos, which seems unlikely.

This is what confused me about your logic.

Case #1: Your theory just now about Yuber.
Main theory: Yuber might have worked alone.
Supporting idea: Yuber being rumored to be seen in the ruins (which is a theory as well because we just don't know why he was there or whether it was true or not).
Your opinion: It's plausible to happen, despite being supported by a theory rather than a fact.

Case #2: My theory about Pesmerga and Yuber
Main theory: Pesmerga and Yuber might have crossed path before the one in Gregminster.
Supporting idea: Pesmerga never mentioned the meet with Yuber in Gregminster at all in S2. This is a fact that showed he didn't have to tell us whether he had met Yuber before or not.
Your opinion: [using your own words above] Because we only know of one certain encounter, we must assume that they have only crossed swords that one time.

Now let me explain why it's confusing. In case #1, your supporting idea was one event where there was a rumor about Yuber being seen in the ruins. In case #2, my supporting idea was one event of Pesmerga not telling Riou about him meeting Yuber in Gregminster. Notice the same element? Both supporting ideas occurred only once. In case #2, you said that we must assume that the only one time they ever met because of that. But in case #1, despite having the same one event to support the theory, you said that it's plausible for Yuber to have worked alone before (instead of using the same logic as the one in case #2). How does that make sense? You contradict your own logic.

It seems that either A) You just want to disagree with me even if that means going against your logic [hence, your real logic was in case #1] or B) You really use your logic in case #2, which proven yourself to be wrong in case #1. Either way, you are wrong in either of the two. Since both are based on your logic, I'll let you decide which one to be the real logic to you.

I am referring to posts in the past, but I repeat that once again I'm not trying to make a personal attack. I'm sorry, again, if it's interpreted as such.

Okay, just so that it's clear, which questions did you refer to? Since I haven't answered them, I'll try to answer them next time after you made it clear which questions you really referred to.